Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by pbmaise

Thanks for replies and links.

I am learning new nomenclature.

A vessel is registered only if only paperwork is in California.

This type of vessel is indeed "undocumented" and does Not carry the US flag protections.

Yes I read reports that people have indeed wandered far from California using only California registration papers, however this is certainly something I would not do.

Further I don't think it is even possible anymore since I have to carry an international AIS and this comes from the federal government.

I suspect the vessel has not been in California for more than 20 years. Further I am not in California and there are zero plans to sail back into US waters. Therefore,

#1 Still waiting to see actual papers on boat and suspect no renewals were paid to California.

#2 Wondering if there is an unpaid lien on the boat.

#3 Still unsure if State of California would demand any unpaid renewal fees before I could legally flag vessel.

#4 Still have not heard from anyone who has experienced flagging and documenting a vessel that was only registered in a State and never federally flagged.

I am am doing my due diligence and informed the seller, no broker involved, documentation is my number one question.

#5 This is more a local SE Asia directed question to all those who have reflagged their vessel In Langkawi Malaysia. It has to be more about due diligence to understand my risks when it comes time to sell. Most buyers of this vessel likely would reflag into Langkawi or Thailand. I highly doubt it is possible to reflag an unflagged vessel and am curious if anyone has managed to reflag a vessel that was only registered.

In other words it is impossible for this seller in the Philippines to sell his vessel to anyone accept an American. Citizen who has the capacity to flag the vessel. Any other nationality, Americans interested in owning boats in the Philippines are few and far between, would have to accept ownership on the basis of it being undocumented.

And, now I just realized I have a new can of worms to open.

What if the seller isn't American? Can they even legally sell the vessel if they themselves did not update registration into their own name because they couldn't?

Documenting a vessel with the USCG provides for two things: 1) It establishes the nationality of the vessel as it pertains to traveling in international waters; 2) it provides titling of the vessel and therefore recordation of liens [e.g. mortgages and / or repairs].

Each of the 50 States and also the territories of the USA can also provide titling to a vessel and recordation of liens. States can also require registration of vessels including USCG documented vessels.

What can't happen [that is to say, not allowed] is to have USCG documented boats AND simultaneously State titling of a vessel because the Federal titling of the vessel derived by documenting the boat is dominate in authority and scope.

Do not confuse, registration with titling and don't confuse registration with documenting a vessel. They are each distinct.

Of keen issue for you prospective purchase is establishing proof of ownership of the vessel by the seller such that title can be legally and validly transferred between the parties. Also of keen issue is that the title transfer is accomplished free of all liens.

To document a vessel, or to register a vessel with a state or to title a vessel with a state one must provide proof of ownership to the respective authority agency or agencies.

Of most keen importance is that the proof of ownership is in fact real and not fraudulent as the documents provided are the basis for the USCG and / or the States to issue the documentation, registration or titling. If fraud is pulled over the authorities then the documentation, registration and titling could be invalidated and you could purchase a vessel but not have lawful ownership.

As to the boat being registered in California, at one time or another. I believe that registering a boat in California also requires titling of the boat by California. The registration of the boat with the State of California may have lapsed, but the titling would continue. In order to have title transferred by the State of California, the previous owner may need to catch up on the unpaid lapsing of registration of the vessel, [or in the alternate convince the California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) that the boat was removed from California waters and thus not subject to continued registration with the State of California, in which case the boat became an undocumented boat as to its status with the State of California, NOT to get confused as becoming "undocumented" by the USCG because it was not ever documented by the USCG. Again the use of the word documented is fact specific and context specific. When one is dealing with the USCG documenting a vessel provides both nationality and titling.

If registration lapsed with the State of California, then the boat has in effect become a completely undocumented boat. Neither documented by the USCG nor by a State of the United States. I suspect the Philippines would have major issue with a boat that is undocumented and I would be very wary of it chain of ownership.

Guidance specific to the State of California is copied below:

What Vessels Must be Registered?
Generally, every sail-powered vessel over eight feet in length and every motor-driven vessel (regardless of length) that is not documented by the U.S. Coast Guard which is used or on the waters of this state are subject to registration by the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). The vessel must be located in California.

Vessels previously registered in other states must be registered in California within 120 days of being brought into the state, if it will be used upon California waterways the majority of the time.

The term vessel applies to every description of water-craft used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water, except the following:

A seaplane on the water.
A watercraft specifically designed to operate on a permanently fixed course and guided by a mechanical device that restricts the watercraft's movement to the fixed course.
A floating structure that is designed and built to be used as a stationary waterborne residential dwelling, which, (a) does not have and is not designed to have a mode of power of its own, (b) is dependent for utilities upon a continuous utility linkage to a source originating on shore, and (c) has a permanent, continuous hookup to a shoreside sewage system.
The following vessels do not have to be registered in California:

Vessels propelled solely by oars or paddles.
Nonmotorized sailboats that are eight feet or less in length.
Nonmotorized surfboards propelled by a sail and with a mast that the operator must hold upright.
A ship's lifeboat (a dinghy is not a lifeboat).
Vessels currently and lawfully numbered (registered) by another state that are principally used outside California.
Vessels brought into California for racing purposes only (exempted only during races and tune-ups).
NOTE: Commercial vessels of five net tons or more, or 30 feet or more in length must be registered (documented) by the U.S. Coast Guard.

What is the Difference Between a Documented Vessel and an Undocumented Vessel?
An undocumented vessel is registered by the DMV and does not have a marine certificate issued by the U.S. Coast Guard.

A documented vessel is registered and issued a marine certificate by the U.S. Coast Guard. It does not require DMV registration. Please see the previous note.

You are required to register your undocumented vessel and pay applicable fees before it is placed in California waters.




Being able to trace and validate the ownership of the vessel all the way back to the builder is what you desire.

As to reflagging a boat that was never flagged to any country, you have answered your inquiry as there is no "re" about such. There would only be a first flagging, which in the US would involve documenting the boat with the USCG. If you are a US citizen and can provide proof of ownership you should be able to have the boat documented by the USCG.

Note that if the boat is being sold in the Philippines and was manufactured in the USA then it has in fact been imported into the Philippines and customs duties may be due by the seller who imported the vessel into the Philippines. That import duty would be a lien on the boat [due and payable by the owner that brought it in country], albeit likely unrecorded lien because the owner may not have cleared customs with the vessel upon entry to the Philippines, or may have overextended the period of waiver of importation duty. Since the boat in the Philippines and it sounds like the purchase transaction may occur in said country, you need to ascertain the rules for selling boats in said country.

All sounds a bit sketchy, be cautious. There are people who simply fail to follow the rules and regulations of whatever country or state they are in or have obligations to either deliberately, negligently, or through ignorance.

Good luck and happy sailing.

[Dsanduril]

CA does not require state registration of documented boats. Indeed you can't register a documented vessel in CA. CA DMV Vessel Registration

CA does have a personal property tax on boats. This tax is charged by the county (not the state) of principal use and applies equally to documented and registered vessels that are used in the state. A CA resident with a vessel outside the state, or any CA registered vessel outside the state is not subject to personal property tax. Of course, if you have been taxed in a county they will continue to send a bill every year until you prove that the boat is no longer in that county. Clearance papers from foreign ports, marina bills from outside CA, etc. all suffice.

Section 14 of the California Constitution states, "All property taxed by the local government shall be assessed in the county, city, and district in which it is situated." Revenue and Taxation Code Section 1141 further provides that "boats shall be assessed where they are habitually moored when not in use". Domicile of the owner is the usual tax situs. However, proof that the boat is habitually stored or moored elsewhere when not in use overrides that presumption.

Registration information on boats comes directly from the Department of Motor Vehicles. Boats should be registered at the situs at which they are moored, and this will determine the taxing jurisdiction.

Proof of situs other than DMV registration of domicile could include receipts of docking fees (on January 1 and current), proof of registration in another county or state, and/or a copy of an uncanceled current tax bill from another county for said boat.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

CA does not require state registration of documented boats. Indeed you can't register a documented vessel in CA. CA DMV Vessel Registration

CA does have a personal property tax on boats. This tax is charged by the county (not the state) of principal use and applies equally to documented and registered vessels that are used in the state. A CA resident with a vessel outside the state, or any CA registered vessel outside the state is not subject to personal property tax. Of course, if you have been taxed in a county they will continue to send a bill every year until you prove that the boat is no longer in that county. Clearance papers from foreign ports, marina bills from outside CA, etc. all suffice.

Property taxes that are due on a California vessel would be a valid lien on the vessel and likely will require payment before California would issue a valid transfer of title of the boat that had been registered in California. You can run but you can't hide forever.

Property taxes would need to be resolved with the county agency at which the boat had been kept and which issued the property tax billings. The State of California DMV would not be involved in resolving any and all property taxes due. The owner of the vessel is responsible for the paying the taxes due and all interest and penalties associated there with. You as a new buyer can not resolve such if the amount is in dispute, except that you can pay the property taxes on behalf of someone else as the county doesn't care who pays the bill just so long as it is paid and no taxes are thence due.

[Montanan]

Note that one can not legally register a boat with the State of California if the boat is not first kept in the State of California and one can not legally continue to register a boat with the State of California if it is not kept in the State, except for short periods of departure from California wherein there is an expectation to return during the period of the year of valid registration.

The vessel in question is located in the Philippines.

If it was built in California then titling would have originated by the builder upon completion of the vessel and initial sale. One should be able to trace such builder titling and subsequent transfer of ownership to the original buyer and then trace each and every further ownership with out lapse of time period of ownership chain.

Did it just recently arrive in the Philippines? Has it been out of California for more than the year of its registration? Was it expected to be returned to California?

All questions pertinent to maintaining validity of registration of the vessel with the State of California. With the State requires WithIN the State.

One can't legally register a vessel in a State and then go cruise about out of State by water or by land / trailering / storage for extended periods of time. When the vessel enters and remains for a stipulated period of waiver time in another State or another country then the vessel will be required to become "registered" in the place it has established it presence. Cruisers permits / licenses are commonly required for providing a limited period of waiver from "registering" in country, ditto as to waiver of importation and as to the likes VAT / property taxations, etc.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

It is quite possible to sail a California registered vessel around the world without any USCG documentation . We did it for four decades.

A state registered boat won't show up in the federal database (unless it is also documented - some states require registration of documented vessels - CA does not). The problem is the loose use of the word "documented". Ask the seller for the number, if it starts with "CF" it is state registered.

Dsandruril.

Note that one can only register a vessel in the State of California if in fact it is kept in California, on land or in State waters. If you departed California after having properly and legally registered your boat that was in State then any renewal of the registration would have been invalid and illegal.

Not saying you didn't do it, but it sounds like you did such improperly and fraudulently, if in fact you did not return to California to maintain the vessel principle situs in State.

Situs establishes a vessel's California status as to registration and as to property taxation.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Dsanduril.

Note that one can only register a vessel in the State of California if in fact it is kept in California, on land or in State waters.

Actually, state law is a bit silent on that topic. To get a registration law says/requires:

9850 Every undocumented vessel using the waters or on the waters of this state shall be currently numbered.

The CA DMV has on numerous occasions said that a registered vessel, not registered elsewhere, that leaves the state with the intent to return to the state may retain the state registration. Within the US if you stay for very long you are generally required to de-register in the former state and re-register in the new state. But if traveling outside the US CA DMV is quite happy to continue registration if you declare the intent to return, and they will register the situs of the vessel as being outside the state. At least that has been my experience over many years. Our current vessel (last 3 years) is documented so I don't have any absolutely current experience.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Santiano

Related question:
I've got CA registration on my boat, currently. If I document it with the USCG, I'll still have to pay state taxes while I'm in CA. But what about when I leave CA/US waters? Any taxes due whilst cruising away from home?

And how would they know (how would I prove) I'm gone?

Whom has the burden of proof?

It’s a boat, it moves, can they prove it’s been in the state XYZ days? Did they have a warrant for the tracker they installed on your boat or for the surveillance? Because that’s about the only what they could prove it


I’ve heard stories of people making their hailing port and where they have their documentation sent to a better state. Personally I ethically couldn’t fund the nonsense that has become CA, which I sad because I spent a good part of my life there.

[pbmaise]

Well I heard back from seller and this is now about as clear as mud to me. The BS alarm is ringing.

The seller refuses to show me the California paperwork but claims he has title. He claims his fear is he paid less than asking price and wants more based on the refit this year.

He wrote:

To clarify recent history of boat. Boat was owned by uk citizen who had it registered in uk and subic bay. He sold to previous owner by phil deed of sale to american citizen who resided in manila. He never documented vessel in his name. He later sold vessel to me by phil deed of sale. . I took title and registered boat in california. I received the original 1994 title when i bought the boat last year. B4 these owners there is no clear paperwork trail. This is about 7 years of history. Hope this satisfies your questions.

#######

Well where do I start with that? Where would you?

If indeed the vessel was once registered in either UK or Subic (Philippines) then how in the world could he get it registered in California without first deflagging vessel.

BS alarm. BS...

I am thinking of simply replying:

Great! Since you were able to clean up the title and get California to recognize you as the only owner it now very easy to establish full USCG documentation. The form is online and cost less than $150.

[pbmaise]

Well I heard back from seller and this is now about as clear as mud to me. The BS alarm is ringing.

The seller refuses to show me the California paperwork but claims he has title. He claims his fear is he paid less than asking price and wants more based on the refit this year.

He wrote:

To clarify recent history of boat. Boat was owned by uk citizen who had it registered in uk and subic bay. He sold to previous owner by phil deed of sale to american citizen who resided in manila. He never documented vessel in his name. He later sold vessel to me by phil deed of sale. . I took title and registered boat in california. I received the original 1994 title when i bought the boat last year. B4 these owners there is no clear paperwork trail. This is about 7 years of history. Hope this satisfies your questions.

#######

Well where do I start with that? Where would you?

If indeed the vessel was once registered in either UK or Subic (Philippines) then how in the world could he get it registered in California without first deflagging vessel.

BS alarm. BS...

I am thinking of simply replying:

Great! Since you were able to clean up the title and get California to recognize you as the only owner it now very easy to establish full USCG documentation. The form is online and cost less than $150.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

Whom has the burden of proof?

It’s a boat, it moves, can they prove it’s been in the state XYZ days.

They don't have to prove it. They just send you a tax bill if they suspect you might owe a tax.

Take your example of putting down a hailing port which differs from where you actually keep the boat. That's perfectly legal, but the state of the hailing port will very likely send you a tax bill. Especially if it's California or Maine.

There is no "innocent until proven guilty." You have to prove, to the taxing authority's satisfaction, that you don't owe the tax.

If you fail to do so, they can and will come after you. Other states will recognize the claim.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

...your US documentation has been invalid which my negate any protections you once had under maritime and international law.

Could someone tell me what these protections real world are?

I keep reading about protections but when I look for details it gets much more fuzzy. Is there a “if only I had documentation vs state reg/etc I wouldn’t be in XYZ situation”?


My vessel is documented so I don’t have a dog in this fight, nor do I honestly believe my government is going to rush my my rescue from some far flung place ether way, I’m just not connected enough, so I’m really just curious.

[Sand crab]

One protection is the Coast Guard or Navy would rescue you in a far off place.

[boat driver]

A gooddeal of ideas but not simple procedural facts.
1) ships papers? It is registered somewhere. start there
2) If papers forged/out of date/not for that vessel then it becomes the previous owners responsibility to clear the vessel.
3) somewhere in the vessel is a manufactures identification number. Ideally a HIN number on stbd stern/on multihulls may be on both stern quarters. On trimarans it is the center.
4) Somewhere internally fastened/carved permanently into a main frame would be a Documentation number if the vessel was ever documented (when being built)
5) If the name changed the number would not. It is fixed to the boat.
6) If no numbers are to be located, then the risk really scrapping and becomes re-registering it at your home country. That can be a nightmare depending where this will take place.

[Sand crab]

The BS alarm is definitely ringing. If the boat is that great of a deal then hire an escrow company and put the funds in escrow. When and if the title is cleaned up and in your name then the seller gets his money. I think I've read here that it costs a couple thousand bucks or so.
Is this the Kantola?

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

One protection is the Coast Guard or Navy would rescue you in a far off place.

Coast Guard/Navy don’t care if you are documented, or even American if you are in need of rescue. Search-and-rescue is both an international obligation and a maritime tradition. Who will do the SAR depends largely on where you are not who you are.

I have yet to find anything other than “certain protections” mentioned, I too would love an actual reference to laws/treaties that give me those “protections” only if I am documented.

I used to hear that a documented vessel was a “part of the United States” and thus enjoyed privileges similar to an embassy, but that has been thoroughly debunked. Also used to hear that a state vessel couldn’t be commandeered in time of war but that a documented vessel could. Pretty sure if the US military shows up and wants my boat it won’t matter what paperwork I have.

I have sailed both a state registered boat and a documented one around the world and have not yet met an official anywhere who even noticed the difference. All they look for is a paper, something that looks somewhat official, with your name and the boat’s name or number. Do you really expect some minor bureaucrat in a far flung corner of the world to either know or care about the pedantic details of US registration vs. documentation?

For the OP’s case, with things as you describe above I think it will be very hard to prove ownership to the satisfaction of most registering authorities. However, if he boat title is currently CA then all you need is the current owner’s signature and a bill of sale - they won’t check beyond that - the presumption is that if you can turn over the original title, properly signed, then the sale was legitimate. I wouldn’t find that satisfactory myself, but if your interest is high enough....