Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-11-2019, 09:14   #31
Registered User
 
NorthernMac's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2019
Boat: A185F, Mystic 30’ Cutter
Posts: 228
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
They don't have to prove it. They just send you a tax bill if they suspect you might owe a tax.

Take your example of putting down a hailing port which differs from where you actually keep the boat. That's perfectly legal, but the state of the hailing port will very likely send you a tax bill. Especially if it's California or Maine.

There is no "innocent until proven guilty." You have to prove, to the taxing authority's satisfaction, that you don't owe the tax.

If you fail to do so, they can and will come after you. Other states will recognize the claim.

Not all states try to prove your money.

And unless you can prove your case, that’s just a polite certified letter or recorded phone call (depending on th state) and round file their scam letter.

I’ve been through roadblocks, I mean “safety checks”, and questioned about my cars out of state plates, the cop tried his hardest to get me to say how long the car had been in state, “I don’t recall exactly and don’t like to speak if I can’t speak exactly”, after saying that like 2 or 3 times he slinked off and I went about my day with all the money I had before in my wallet. Not all pirates look the same, but they all have the same job description


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Coast Guard/Navy don’t care if you are documented, or even American if you are in need of rescue. Search-and-rescue is both an international obligation and a maritime tradition. Who will do the SAR depends largely on where you are not who you are.

I have yet to find anything other than “certain protections” mentioned, I too would love an actual reference to laws/treaties that give me those “protections” only if I am documented.

I used to hear that a documented vessel was a “part of the United States” and thus enjoyed privileges similar to an embassy, but that has been thoroughly debunked. Also used to hear that a state vessel couldn’t be commandeered in time of war but that a documented vessel could. Pretty sure if the US military shows up and wants my boat it won’t matter what paperwork I have.

I have sailed both a state registered boat and a documented one around the world and have not yet met an official anywhere who even noticed the difference. All they look for is a paper, something that looks somewhat official, with your name and the boat’s name or number. Do you really expect some minor bureaucrat in a far flung corner of the world to either know or care about the pedantic details of US registration vs. documentation?

For the OP’s case, with things as you describe above I think it will be very hard to prove ownership to the satisfaction of most registering authorities. However, if he boat title is currently CA then all you need is the current owner’s signature and a bill of sale - they won’t check beyond that - the presumption is that if you can turn over the original title, properly signed, then the sale was legitimate. I wouldn’t find that satisfactory myself, but if your interest is high enough....
Right!

So aside from accounting, banking, less nonsense state fees, using it for money making or just not wanting state stickers on the side of the boat, there isn’t really much difference between registering with a state or documenting with the USCG?
__________________

NorthernMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 22:22   #32
Marine Service Provider
 
pbmaise's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Langkawi, Malaysia
Boat: Jay Kantola - Trimaran 65 ft by 40 ft beam
Posts: 727
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
The BS alarm is definitely ringing. If the boat is that great of a deal then hire an escrow company and put the funds in escrow. When and if the title is cleaned up and in your name then the seller gets his money. I think I've read here that it costs a couple thousand bucks or so.
Is this the Kantola?
No my vessel was the 65ft Kantola sold on terms earlier this year. The trimaran in question was also built in California. 1994 Hedley and more manageable 40ft.

The seller has done some work and I don't mind rewarding same. However, looking at this in terms of resale without proper documentation I wouldn't get much when it came time to sell.

I double checked something I claimed earlier. Without USCG documentation there is no Official Ship Number to fill in on FCC Form 605 for the ship station license and MMSI. Today you cannot visit some key countries like Thailand and Singapore without your international AIS transponder and that MMSI from the FCC.

I miss my perfectly organized tool boxes.
Sockets
Wrenches
Everyday box
Heavy duty tools
Electricals
Radio and terminals
Soldering box
Taps and dies
Allen keys and star wrenches
Power tools
Glues and lubricants
Orings and Gaskets
Plumbing fittings
Brass high pressure and gas fittings
Glue gun and glue
Dremel
Standard drill bits
Specialty bits
Sand papers

I also carried at least 200 lbs of stainless bits and pieces again all organized by type
Washers
Nuts
Small bolts
Large bolts
Hex head bolts
Slotted screws
Philip's screws
Blocks
Thimbles
Shackles small
Shackels big
Shackels huge
Impellers
Bearings

Alas
__________________

pbmaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 22:36   #33
Registered User
 
Dougtiff's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Rafael, Ca.
Boat: Gaff rigged Ketch[Spray]37' on deck
Posts: 357
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

As i have posted before, their is NO international law stating a vessel must be registered, proof or ownership yes, case in point, i purchased a boat in Singapore back in the 80'S, owned by Swede, we went to a Notary with his ownership documents, and produced a bill of sale, stating myself the new owner, with rhis document i went to the U.S. Embassy and was issued " A certificate of American ownership "a impressive document , wth a seal in wax, and a Red ribben this is all i had and used it in many countries with no questions asked so based on my experience, i would suggest you do the same.
Dougtiff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2019, 14:53   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,466
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
Well I heard back from seller and this is now about as clear as mud to me. The BS alarm is ringing.

The seller refuses to show me the California paperwork but claims he has title. He claims his fear is he paid less than asking price and wants more based on the refit this year.

He wrote:

To clarify recent history of boat. Boat was owned by uk citizen who had it registered in uk and subic bay. He sold to previous owner by phil deed of sale to american citizen who resided in manila. He never documented vessel in his name. He later sold vessel to me by phil deed of sale. . I took title and registered boat in california. I received the original 1994 title when i bought the boat last year. B4 these owners there is no clear paperwork trail. This is about 7 years of history. Hope this satisfies your questions.

#######

Well where do I start with that? Where would you?

If indeed the vessel was once registered in either UK or Subic (Philippines) then how in the world could he get it registered in California without first deflagging vessel.

BS alarm. BS...

I am thinking of simply replying:

Great! Since you were able to clean up the title and get California to recognize you as the only owner it now very easy to establish full USCG documentation. The form is online and cost less than $150.
Indeed that is a very sketchy history during the most recent 7 year period and apparently zippo as to 1994 to 2012 ish time period.

I am particularly confused about the part where the current owner / i.e., the present seller states he bought the boat last year and then apparently registered in California. Did he take receipt of the boat in California when he purchased it last year and then sailed to the Philippines recently? One can only register a boat in California if it was kept in California waters, it it was never in California then any registration would have been invalid from the get go.

In essence the vessel appears to have an unclear chain of title ownership. That doesn't mean you can't buy it but just that there is an inherent underlying risk of clear transfer of title to the vessel. The concern being that someone may come out of the blue and claim ownership, as to if that is a likely issue or not, who knows. If and when you go to sell the vessel you would in turn be subject to having limited history of ownership as well which could make selling the vessel a bit challenging because of reticence of a prospective purchaser. Just as you are feeling a degree of reticence. And if a valid title holder does arise then you might find yourself engaged in a conflict within the chain of sellers and buyers.


Reference article on the vast number of ways one can lose your vessel and which builds the case for there being the desire for pursuing title insurance to mitigate against the risk of lose or invalid title.

Ways to Lose Your Vessel — All Oceans Closings

"125 PLUS WAYS FOR AN OWNER OR LENDER TO LOSE A VESSEL
There is a multitude of ways that the title to a vessel can be in jeopardy and a lender can lose its preferred ship mortgage position. Obviously, if the owner's interest in the vessel is in question, then a preferred ship mortgage that acts as security for a loan on that vessel is likewise in question.

The position of the mortgage holder can be at risk even if title is not at issue and a preferred mortgage can be unenforceable even if properly recorded. Following are a series of legal cases and other references which illustrate these points. They identify situations in which vessel title insurance would have been of value.

The list is not intended to be exhaustive; it merely is intended to be illustrative. The below references, while listed under one category, often have relevance to other categories."
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2019, 17:05   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Hammond, IN
Boat: Columbia 8.7
Posts: 188
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
.He never documented vessel in his name. He later sold vessel to me by phil deed of sale. . I took title and registered boat in california. I received the original 1994 title when i bought the boat last year.
This is the key part. Assuming he isn't lying:

A bill of sale from the UK owner and the UK owner's title should be enough paperwork for the owner to get a CA registration. CA isn't going to care about deflagging the UK registration. Concerns about not being allowed to get a CA registration if the boat is not in CA are reasonable, but it's totally possible for the bureaucrat handling it to not care or not notice that. Either way, even if CA shouldn't have issued the registration, if they did it's valid.

Again assuming he isn't lying, if the owner gives you the CA registration in his name and he writes you a bill of sale with the correct info (Particularly the HIN), USCG will likely issue you a document. Normally one would prefer a state title to prove ownership, but USCG will accept a registration instead.

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organiz...r-FAQ/#anchor8

So the owner's story is plausible. His email doesn't mention a title, but that was likely issued at the same time as the registration and he told you elsewhere he has the title. So barring a title that isn't clean, you should be fine. I don't see the point in requiring the owner to get it documented before you close, that will take several months and won't give you any additional protection from an encumbered title unless the boat has been USCG documented before. It might be worthwhile to track down the UK owner if the UK database has the appropriate info publicly available, I don't know if it does.

Again, he must hand you the bill of sale and proof of ownership, either a title or registration in his name. If you don't send both of those to USCG, they will not issue a document.
CFS Klopas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2019, 11:27   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,466
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFS Klopas View Post
This is the key part. Assuming he isn't lying:

A bill of sale from the UK owner and the UK owner's title should be enough paperwork for the owner to get a CA registration. CA isn't going to care about deflagging the UK registration. Concerns about not being allowed to get a CA registration if the boat is not in CA are reasonable, but it's totally possible for the bureaucrat handling it to not care or not notice that. Either way, even if CA shouldn't have issued the registration, if they did it's valid.

Again assuming he isn't lying, if the owner gives you the CA registration in his name and he writes you a bill of sale with the correct info (Particularly the HIN), USCG will likely issue you a document. Normally one would prefer a state title to prove ownership, but USCG will accept a registration instead.

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organiz...r-FAQ/#anchor8

So the owner's story is plausible. His email doesn't mention a title, but that was likely issued at the same time as the registration and he told you elsewhere he has the title. So barring a title that isn't clean, you should be fine. I don't see the point in requiring the owner to get it documented before you close, that will take several months and won't give you any additional protection from an encumbered title unless the boat has been USCG documented before. It might be worthwhile to track down the UK owner if the UK database has the appropriate info publicly available, I don't know if it does.

Again, he must hand you the bill of sale and proof of ownership, either a title or registration in his name. If you don't send both of those to USCG, they will not issue a document.
Agreed that the USCG may "issue" documentation based on the presentation of the minimum required paperwork, e.g., "proof of ownership" but do note that such USCG document [or State registration and titling] may be only worth the paper it is written upon because such does not guarantee that ownership has in fact been conveyed, such process and document are just a recordation.

By way of reference:

2. FEDERAL REGISTRATION DOES NOT PROVE TITLE

Federal registration does not of itself confer endowments of title and ownership to a vessel. Jones v. One Fifty Foot Gulfstar Motor Sailing Yacht, 625 F. 2nd 44 (5th Cir. 1980)

3. RECORDATION IS NOT CONCLUSIVE OF TITLE

Record title is not conclusive as to ownership of a vessel. In re Lykes Bros. S.S. Co., Inc., 196 B.R. 574 (M.D.Fla. 1996)

4. CERTIFICATE OF DOCUMENTATION IS NOT CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF TITLE

Issuance of certificate of documentation is not conclusive as to ownership of vessel, but rather, courts are guided by the underlying contract. In re Tacoma Boatbuilding Co., 81 B.R. 248 (S.D.N.Y. 1987)

16. CERTIFICATE OF DOCUMENTATION DID NOT OVERCOME PRIOR SALE OF VESSEL

Hozie bought a vessel from Mignano, left it moored where it was, though Hozie was responsible for future mooring costs and for paying the bank the payments that Mignano had been making. Hozie did not record the sale. Mignano tried to rescind the sale but Hozie refused. Hozie then discovered the vessel's condition was worse than represented at the time of purchase and a dispute arose over whether Hozie should continue making payments. Mignano died, and his executrix agreed to sell the vessel to Underwood who convinced her to sign a U.S. Coast Guard bill of sale (allegedly to clear title to the vessel) which Underwood filed with the Coast Guard and he received a Certificate of Documentation. Underwood sought a summary judgment that he had title to the vessel. The court would not grant it. Hozie v. The Vessel Highland Light, 1998 AMC 2829

17. CERTIFICATE OF DOCUMENTATION IS NOT CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF OWNERSHIP

Although one party has a “Certificate of Documentation” for the vessel, this is not conclusive evidence of ownership in a proceeding in which ownership is an issue. Hozie v. The Vessel Highland Light, 1998 AMC 2829

18. BUILDER'S CERTIFICATE IS NOT CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF TITLE

For purpose of determining whether mortgagee proved mortgagor's ownership of vessel as part of its burden of establishing valid preferred ship mortgage, builder's certificate is prima facie, but not conclusive, evidence of title, as it is part of paperwork required by U.S. Coast Guard for the certificate of documentation process. Chase Manhattan Financial Services, Inc. v. McMillian, 896 F.2d 452 (10th Cir. 1990)

9. TITLE TO AN ABANDONED VESSEL

Even if a vessel has been abandoned, the owner or owner’s successor retains title to that vessel no matter how long it has been abandoned. Emre E. Dluhos v. The Floating and Abandoned Vessel, known as "New York", 162 F.3d 63 (2nd Cir. 1997)

12. CHAIN OF TITLE ISSUES

Chain of title documents for a vessel sale includes judicial proceedings (bankruptcy, receivership, probate, conservatorship, dissolution of marriage) and if the court has not authorized the sale, the order authorizing sale is subject to collateral attack, or the order is invalid because court lacked jurisdiction.

Ways to Lose Your Vessel — All Oceans Closings
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2019, 13:39   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,466
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Additionally note that your purchase may not be cleared of Liens and Encumbrances tied to the vessel. You should be sure to include a covenant in your purchase contract whereby the seller warrants the vessel to be free of any and all encumbrances or liens and that the seller assumes liability for such, albeit again such covenant is only as good as your ability to have such enforced on the seller and the seller has the capability to fulfill such financial exposure.

By way of examples as to the exposure you take when acquiring any vessel:

1. MARITIME LIENS FOLLOW THE VESSEL WHEN SOLD

“Unlike most land-based liens, a maritime lien is unrecorded and arises from the moment the supply or service, which is the basis of the lien, is provided to the vessel. The security is the vessel itself and the lien can be enforced by an action against the vessel in which the vessel is arrested. An action to arrest the vessel is usually available wherever the vessel can be found. This includes the United States as well as many foreign jurisdictions. Note also that the lien follows the vessel, even when it is sold, such that you may recover for your goods or services even if the party who hired you no longer owns the vessel.” Pacific Maritime Magazine, October 1996, Arresting a Ship: Actions In Rem

2. WHEN DOES A LIEN FOR A MARITIME CONTRACT ATTACH

Courts have long understood that maritime liens for charters and shipping contracts attach at the beginning of the contract and remain inchoate until breached.

3. WHEN DOES A LIEN FOR REPAIRS TO A VESSEL ATTACH

"Where repairs, being performed under contract, were begun before, but not completed until after recording and endorsement, it has reasonably been held that the entire repair claim was entitled to priority. The basis of such holding seems to be that the repair man was under a contractual duty to go forward with the work." Bank One Louisiana, N.A. v. M/V Mr. Dean, et al., 293 F.3d 830 (5th Cir. June 10, 2002); Gilmore & Black at 755-56, citing The Eastern Shore, 31 F. Supp 964 (D. Md. 1940), and The Transford, 1929 A.M.C. 727 (E.D. NY 1929)

4. MARITIME LIEN IS NONCONSENSUAL AND UNRECORDED

A maritime lien is non-consensual and unrecorded; it also follows the vessel into the hands of even a good faith purchaser. Admiralty and Maritime Law 3rd Ed., Thomas J. Schoenbaum, Vol. 1, pg. 504; United States v. Z. P. Chandon, 889 F. 2d. 1990 (9th Cir. 1989)

5. UCC DOES NOT APPLY TO MARITIME LIENS

The Uniform Commercial Code does not apply to maritime liens. The ship owner's charter lien upon sub -freights earned by the charterer prevailed against the bankruptcy trustee, even though the lien was not filed. Admiralty and Maritime Law 3rd Ed., Thomas J. Schoenbaum, Vol. 1, pg. 504, footnote 55; Walsh v. Placedo Shipping Corp. of Liberia (In re Pacific Caribbean Shipping), 789 F.2d. 1406 (9th Cir. 1986)

6. WHEN DOES A MARITIME LIEN ARISE

A maritime lien arises from the moment of the service or occurrence that provides its basis. Admiralty and Maritime Law 3rd Ed., Thomas J. Schoenbaum, Vol. 1, pg. 50; Riffe Petroleum Co. v. Cibro Sales Corp., 601 F.2d 1385 (10th Cir. 1979)

The nature of lien can be just about anything, e.g., an unpaid marina charge / slip rental/ land storage, a tow service, unpaid insurance premium to an underwriter that issued a policy for the vessel, a mechanic or riggers fee, a delivery fee, etc., etc.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 09:49   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 18
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
Thanks for replies and links.

I am learning new nomenclature.

A vessel is registered only if only paperwork is in California.

This type of vessel is indeed "undocumented" and does Not carry the US flag protections.

Yes I read reports that people have indeed wandered far from California using only California registration papers, however this is certainly something I would not do.

Further I don't think it is even possible anymore since I have to carry an international AIS and this comes from the federal government.

I suspect the vessel has not been in California for more than 20 years. Further I am not in California and there are zero plans to sail back into US waters. Therefore,

#1 Still waiting to see actual papers on boat and suspect no renewals were paid to California.

#2 Wondering if there is an unpaid lien on the boat.

#3 Still unsure if State of California would demand any unpaid renewal fees before I could legally flag vessel.

#4 Still have not heard from anyone who has experienced flagging and documenting a vessel that was only registered in a State and never federally flagged.

I am am doing my due diligence and informed the seller, no broker involved, documentation is my number one question.

#5 This is more a local SE Asia directed question to all those who have reflagged their vessel In Langkawi Malaysia. It has to be more about due diligence to understand my risks when it comes time to sell. Most buyers of this vessel likely would reflag into Langkawi or Thailand. I highly doubt it is possible to reflag an unflagged vessel and am curious if anyone has managed to reflag a vessel that was only registered.

In other words it is impossible for this seller in the Philippines to sell his vessel to anyone accept an American. Citizen who has the capacity to flag the vessel. Any other nationality, Americans interested in owning boats in the Philippines are few and far between, would have to accept ownership on the basis of it being undocumented.

And, now I just realized I have a new can of worms to open.

What if the seller isn't American? Can they even legally sell the vessel if they themselves did not update registration into their own name because they couldn't?
#1 State title. Unpaid renewals are not an issue as long as the vessel was not used in California waters. (I purchased missed renewals boat in Washington State from a retired federal judge who explained to me that as long as you are not using the boat in state waters you don't need to pay use tax; he also signed under the same statement confirming that the boat was not used in WA waters and title company sent it to the state to get new title in my name)

#2 State title will show legal owner and liens.

#3 Clean title, boat is not in California, you are not living nor registering it in California. Thus dealing with California is the sellers job - not yours.

#4 For 250$ you may hire a local title company which will handle everything for you.

#5 I have never been to that part of the world. However, I suspect you maybe overcomplecating. Flagging is based on the owner and not on the vessel. US citizen or Permanent Resident (Green Card holder) can document with USCG to fly USA flag. Aliens (even if residents on visa) can not fly USA flag. USCG will look into who controls a company if the vessel is owned by one.

The way I understand and see it is:

- USCG Documenting: as US citizen you are eligible, this is your choice if you want to document with USCG or title it with your state.

- Flying USA flag: you can do it based on your citizenship regerdless if the veseel is USGC documented or state titled. This is your choice to use other flag usually because ot taxes, liability, etc but check requirements for entering US waters under that flag.

- State title is an alternative to USCG and will eliminate the need to have one if you use your boat localy in your state.

- Having USCG document or in-land state title (Kansas for example) will not eliminame the need to pay use tax and registering your boat with the state waters of which you will be sailing.

- You will need to clear customs once the vessel enters the US waters. Where was the boat built? HIN? Was the boat cleared into US waters before? Was duty paid in the past? Be ready to show documents confirming. California state title may not be that document if the vessel was never in the US before.

Your local title agent, CBP marine office, DOL & DOR and USCG are the sources of truth.
badadim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 18:08   #39
Marine Service Provider
 
pbmaise's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Langkawi, Malaysia
Boat: Jay Kantola - Trimaran 65 ft by 40 ft beam
Posts: 727
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

I see this thread made the newsletter, so I best update.

Thank you for the legal information about USCG and not being clearance of any liens. I think the risk of anyone stepping forward here is very low.

Yes again I claim while it used to be possible to sail internationally without USCG documention owing to AIS requirements those days are gone. An international MMSI is required just to visit some of the more desirable marine parks here in Philippines since park rangers track vessels.

Currently, the state of vessel docs as well as the sellers recultance to provide basic information like width and mast height, has given me cold feet to move forward.

I have encouraged the seller to get the USCG cert which I think any buyer will require.
pbmaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 18:30   #40
Marine Service Provider
 
pbmaise's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Langkawi, Malaysia
Boat: Jay Kantola - Trimaran 65 ft by 40 ft beam
Posts: 727
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by badadim View Post
#1 State title. Unpaid renewals are not an issue as long as the vessel was not used in California waters. (I purchased missed renewals boat in Washington State from a retired federal judge who explained to me that as long as you are not using the boat in state waters you don't need to pay use tax; he also signed under the same statement confirming that the boat was not used in WA waters and title company sent it to the state to get new title in my name)

#2 State title will show legal owner and liens.

#3 Clean title, boat is not in California, you are not living nor registering it in California. Thus dealing with California is the sellers job - not yours.

#4 For 250$ you may hire a local title company which will handle everything for you.

#5 I have never been to that part of the world. However, I suspect you maybe overcomplecating. Flagging is based on the owner and not on the vessel. US citizen or Permanent Resident (Green Card holder) can document with USCG to fly USA flag. Aliens (even if residents on visa) can not fly USA flag. USCG will look into who controls a company if the vessel is owned by one.

The way I understand and see it is:

- USCG Documenting: as US citizen you are eligible, this is your choice if you want to document with USCG or title it with your state.

- Flying USA flag: you can do it based on your citizenship regerdless if the veseel is USGC documented or state titled. This is your choice to use other flag usually because ot taxes, liability, etc but check requirements for entering US waters under that flag.

- State title is an alternative to USCG and will eliminate the need to have one if you use your boat localy in your state.

- Having USCG document or in-land state title (Kansas for example) will not eliminame the need to pay use tax and registering your boat with the state waters of which you will be sailing.

- You will need to clear customs once the vessel enters the US waters. Where was the boat built? HIN? Was the boat cleared into US waters before? Was duty paid in the past? Be ready to show documents confirming. California state title may not be that document if the vessel was never in the US before.

Your local title agent, CBP marine office, DOL & DOR and USCG are the sources of truth.
Flying a flag and being a flagged vessel are different things.

One other point I realized just now is many places here in SE Asia are demanding to see insurance paperwork. Wouldn't an insurance carrier be reluctant to insure a state registered vessel that wasn't USCG documented when the vessel is overseas?
pbmaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 18:43   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 582
Re: Can a State CA vessel be without USCG doc or US Flag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post

Yes again I claim while it used to be possible to sail internationally without USCG documention owing to AIS requirements those days are gone. An international MMSI is required just to visit some of the more desirable marine parks here in Philippines since park rangers track vessels.

hmmm . . . . just FYI . . . .a USCG documentation number is NOT required to get an FCC MMSI.

The FCC form specifically says "Item 8 Enter the official Coast Guard Documentation Number (as it appears on the document, e.g., 250012) or the State Registration Number (as it appears on the registration, e.g., FL2011GG) of the ship. "

There are plenty of boats around using FCC MMSI who have (only) state registrations.
__________________

Breaking Waves is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Vessel Doc - USCG or Maritime Doc Center? EmeraldCoastSailor Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 20 01-05-2019 09:34
Is Sales Tax Due in Puerto Rico on a USCG doc. vessel? joshrosenthal1 Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 10 20-06-2017 23:03
USCG Vessel Doc Online Renewal St. Elsewhere Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 3 16-03-2015 16:19
How to Find Info on USCG Doc Boat motion30 Training, Licensing & Certification 5 02-05-2012 16:36
Aussie Flag or US Flag on Vessel ? AllezCat Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 48 25-05-2011 06:14

Advertise Here


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:07.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.