Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-10-2015, 20:45   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Azores - Portugal
Boat: Fibramar Farilhao 600 (6.0m)
Posts: 10
Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Hello everyone!

I've got a serious issue going on..
I am from Portugal and I've got a boat registered under the Belgium Flag.

Two weeks ago I was tying of on my spot at the local marina here on the island and I was "inspected" by the local Polícia Marítima (I believe it is similar to the Coast Guard - USCG).

According to the Belgium Flag certificate I am not obligated to have a driving permit for sea and I can only be boarded and inspected by Belgium authorities and the local Customs.
Also, according to Belgium Flag rules I also not obligated to show any other documents nor security equipment to the local authorities here in Portugal.

It happens that they asked me for several documents including the Boat's registry, insurance, "lighthouse tax" and fishing license and I obliged!

After that the officer asked me to show him my security equipment, fire extinguisher, flares, life vests to which I replied, I am on a boat running the Belgium Flag and that he had no authority to ask me for any of those items.

The officer kept insisting that I had to show him the equipment and my driving permit to which I answered: "I do have them stored in the cabin but you Sir, you do not have authority in that matter thus I will not show you that." because he is not even authorized to ask me for those things according to the Belgium Flag in the first place.

After he was done, he told me I was going to receive a ticket notice.

It so happens that on Friday I received the ticket notice and, in sum, it is saying that I failed to provide a driving permit and that I did not have the security equipment on board.
Also there was something saying that as the total ticket price is an abstract amount I was not able to pay the ticket voluntarily and had 20 days to counter the accusations.


Has anyone here experienced this in their home waters?
I will have to write a counter letter to defend myself and I really need the exact laws so I can juice up the letter by giving valid laws instead of what is just written on the Pavillon Belge website where I registered the boat at...

Tomorrow I will try to get in contact with the office that I have the boat registered at but my french is somewhat spotty..

I'm sorry for the long thread but I really need help with this..

Thank you all in advance!
Stay safe on the water!

Vando S.
__________________

__________________
Breezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 20:47   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Azores - Portugal
Boat: Fibramar Farilhao 600 (6.0m)
Posts: 10
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

I haven't even been able to sleep at all because of this... It is stressing me out! it's already almost 3am and I feel my heart pumping like crazy
__________________

__________________
Breezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 20:59   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 3,932
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

My only suggestion would be to contact the Belgium consulate where you are currently located. They will be able to advise you much better than anyone on an internet forum in this mattdr
__________________
newhaul is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 21:43   #4
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

If you had the equipment and sailing licence, why didn't you just give it to them instead of creating this problem? The hole you are standing in was dug by you with a lot of effort so I'd suggest you figure out on your own how to get out.
__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 22:18   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 184
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Iwould agree that the consulate contact could be you safest bet. other wise you may be able to find the laws posted online somewhere. I respect and applaud your willingness to stand your ground. I hope you are correct and are able to resolve this unfortunate situation.
__________________
farm sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 22:22   #6
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,880
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

You really need to go hat in hand and apologize for your bad attitude.

Make up any personal excuse based on misinformation and a painful bowel infection, that caused you to be so short with the inspection officers.

I understand you are Portuguese, so work it out quietly, rather than challenging them.
Invite them back for a much more cooperative inspection and repeat the apology.

They hold the hammer in their country....not Belgium.... so don't fight it, in case they decide to make an example out of you.
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 22:31   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,243
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Let me see if I have understood the situation correctly.

You are Portugese, the boat is in Portugal, where it is normally located (home port), and the Portugese authorities just inspected your boat to see if it complies with Portugese law.

You informed the authorities that it doesn't have to comply with Portugese law, because it is flagged in Holland.

My conclusion would be that you are in error. Local law trumps the law of the flag state.

The only surprising bit about the whole thing is that you thought, even for a second, that you had a leg to stand on.
__________________
Bristol 31.1, SF Bay.
MarkSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 22:37   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: WY / Currently in Hayes VA on the Chesapeake
Boat: Ocean Alexander, Ocean 44
Posts: 922
Thumbs up Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
You really need to go hat in hand and apologize for your bad attitude.

Make up any personal excuse based on misinformation and a painful bowel infection, that caused you to be so short with the inspection officers.

I understand you are Portuguese, so work it out quietly, rather than challenging them.
Invite them back for a much more cooperative inspection and repeat the apology.

They hold the hammer in their country....not Belgium.... so don't fight it, in case they decide to make an example out of you.
+1 They can make your life miserable. You can't do anything that will even ruin their afternoon.
__________________
darylat8750 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 23:03   #9
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 2,593
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

No country I have ever heard of applies the rules of another country.
When in Portugal .....................
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 23:27   #10
Registered User
 
Sandibar's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Finland
Boat: Sandibar 35
Posts: 283
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Hm, I think you have two issues mixed up here. In the EU (everywhere?) the local authorities cannot demand you have qualifications (and possibly equipment) that are not required by your home country rules for the vessel in question. For example, in Finland no certification is required to operate a non-commercial vessel up to a certain size and I am not required to carry such certification, even if I move the boat to a country that requires it. Inland waterways are a different matter.
This has nothing to do with sovereign rights of the nation to grant license to different authorities to monitor and inspect foreign vessels in their waters. If the opposite were true, that would lead to all kinds of problems in foreign ports. You could basically use your boat for illicit activity.
In short, I think you may be right concerning your need to have certain equipment or certifications (depending on Belgian rules), but the local authorities probably have the right to inspect your vessel.
__________________
Sandibar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 00:46   #11
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,198
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

[QUOTE=Sandibar;1942370]Hm, I think you have two issues mixed up here. In the EU (everywhere?) the local authorities cannot demand you have qualifications (and possibly equipment) that are not required by your home country rules for the vessel in question. QUOTE]

Hmmm... I think your batting a sticky wicket..
They can demand whatever they like if you are in their waters.. and... you are obliged to provide it else they can and will stop you from moving on
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 01:45   #12
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,936
Images: 1
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Apparently the Portuguese require sailors in a portuguese boat to have a "driving license". This means they also require foreigners to have one.

see:

Sailing and Boating in Portugal | Portugal

While perhaps technically correct in your opinion on being asked to show it - as someone else noted - they can make the rest of your life miserable - you can't even give them a bad minute or two.

Some countries (notably France, and don't even get started on the US and the USCG) both can and will inspect you to see if you have the proper safety equipment on board - woe be the sailor htat has expired emergency rockets

As another poster noted - go on your knees and tell them you forgot to take your meds or your hemmeroids were hurting like mad and pologize - show them your certificate and get on with your life.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 01:46   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Essex, England
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 48
Posts: 284
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Failed the attitude test so made things worse.

So much easier just to comply.
__________________
paulajayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 02:31   #14
Registered User
 
pikv's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mornington Australia
Boat: Bollard Starfire 32' (steel twin keel)
Posts: 15
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Few of you mixing up Holland and Belgium. Insulting both nationalities😀


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
pikv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 02:55   #15
Registered User
 
Sandibar's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Finland
Boat: Sandibar 35
Posts: 283
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Hmmm... I think your batting a sticky wicket..
They can demand whatever they like if you are in their waters.. and... you are obliged to provide it else they can and will stop you from moving on
You are of course right that they can demand whatever they want. However, there are European agreements covering recreational boating exactly because national requirements are heterogeneous between member states.
__________________

__________________
Sandibar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Portugal

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Canadian flag or change to British flag on buying boat drcot3 Dollars & Cents 5 26-02-2015 12:09
One Way Ticket to US, Leaving by Boat mkjhartmann Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 20 20-10-2013 15:02
Aussie Flag or US Flag on Vessel ? AllezCat Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 48 25-05-2011 06:14
Airline Ticket from Puerto Rico to Aruba ? Llamster Atlantic & the Caribbean 12 25-11-2009 11:43
Tough ticket's for wimp's cat man do Off Topic Forum 0 23-01-2007 19:56



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.