Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-10-2015, 02:11   #121
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,241
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
LOL, that coming from a government official is as bad as it could be!!! Of course, if by any chance that was discovered you would end up not only with a fine but probably in jail.

Authorities can be quite thorough particularly if they get suspicious: they hate smart asses.
It's true however.

The official position of the Belgian Government on certificates is here:
http://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/defa...Diploma_DC.pdf

Belgian yacht owners are advised to have this on their boats. I used to have it with me and just show it when renting boats. It was always sufficient.

I passed the "Yachtman" exam ages ago. It was an interesting experience. You are only tested for theoretical knowledge, but the exam was oral, and the examinators were experienced seamen, and thus the questions were quite challenging, and I had some interesting excahgnes with the examinators. I even ended up learning a few things.
You then get a nice big paper to frame and hang on your living room wall. It's not practical to carry this with you however.
My problem was that I lost it in a fire. So I called the responsible department on what to do, as I suspected that I might end up in the situation that someone abroad wanted me to show something. That's when I was told that they don't give out copies, and that I should just make something up, as I legally didn't need anything, and all I thus needed was something to allow the local officials to pretend they'd done their job.

When Belgium finaly started to give out ICC's I got one. In order to get "Coastal Water, Sail" on my certificate all I needed to do was sign a declaration that I knew how to operate a sailing craft.

So the ICC actually doesn't mean much. Good that it is accepted anyway. Again, probably because it allows local officials to pretend they've upheld the law.
__________________

__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 03:09   #122
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,026
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cottontop View Post
He lost my sympathy when he allowed his flares "might" be out-of-date. I would not expect the USCG to accept an argument that flares are not needed if the boat is in cell phone range.
I can understand his position with regards to equipment regulations (i don't follow him on the flag-of-convenience route or the licensing policy but thats another story).


What would choose if you can have only one of: in date flares or a pair of handheld GPS-enabled VHF with DSC?
that puts flares into perspective i think. Yes, i have both but regard flares much less important than other equipment.


The problem is not just flares. It the fine-print in the local regulations.

Do you have the right flares? Those with the wheelmark or those with the XyZ mark?

Do you have a fire extinguisher? Of course! In service? Fine! But do you have 5 of them as required? Three outside and two inside? are they at least 10.2kg capacity? Powder or liquid? Have these been serviced yearly by someone with a purple-green spanish fire-extinguisher-service certificate?

And these are just the cheapos. Do you have an EPIRB? Self-launching hydrostatic release? a liferaft? If you have a liferaft is it just big enough for you and your family or for the maximum capacity of the boat? And does it comply with local law xy and carry 48h supplies?


Every country we visit has its own set of regulations and we can't follow all. I'd be very interested if there is an internationally recognized regulation to follow.
__________________

__________________
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 03:32   #123
Registered User
 
pikv's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mornington Australia
Boat: Bollard Starfire 32' (steel twin keel)
Posts: 15
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I'm a Fleming (a real one as I was born in Brugge), and I've lived in the Netherlands. So I do know a bit about that :-)

That's why I said mate, insulting both nationalities. Others wouldn't understand. I'm an Amsterdam boy. Anyway, het is alleen maar een geintje. I wonder why they all take it so seriously 😀 life's a joke guys


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
pikv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 04:04   #124
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonsays View Post
you'd have to look a bit further to find a religion that does not worship the same god, as Christianity and Islam all derive from Judaism which shows some fascinating parallerels to the ancient Egyptian Akhenaten.
so formaly, they are all the same? ,)
The called religions of the book share all common origins that are routed on ancient Sumeria, the place were western civilization was born.

Regarding monotheist religions they worship all a unique God and since they all assume that there is only one God, it has to be the same god
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 04:15   #125
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
I can understand his position with regards to equipment regulations (i don't follow him on the flag-of-convenience route or the licensing policy but thats another story).


What would choose if you can have only one of: in date flares or a pair of handheld GPS-enabled VHF with DSC?
that puts flares into perspective i think. Yes, i have both but regard flares much less important than other equipment.


The problem is not just flares. It the fine-print in the local regulations.

Do you have the right flares? Those with the wheelmark or those with the XyZ mark?

Do you have a fire extinguisher? Of course! In service? Fine! But do you have 5 of them as required? Three outside and two inside? are they at least 10.2kg capacity? Powder or liquid? Have these been serviced yearly by someone with a purple-green spanish fire-extinguisher-service certificate?

And these are just the cheapos. Do you have an EPIRB? Self-launching hydrostatic release? a liferaft? If you have a liferaft is it just big enough for you and your family or for the maximum capacity of the boat? And does it comply with local law xy and carry 48h supplies?


Every country we visit has its own set of regulations and we can't follow all. I'd be very interested if there is an internationally recognized regulation to follow.
You are exaggerating. I had boats with register in Portugal and now in Italy and what they demand is very similar and also similar to what is demanded in Spain. I don't believe other countries are that different. The tendency is to harmonize that on EU and the biggest obstacle are some countries that don't want to hear to talk about mandatory equipment, licenses or boat inspections.

Regarding life raft the type varies with the boat register (coastal or offshore) but the number of places is not mandatory. Of course that will limit the number of persons you can carry on the boat, that's logical: If you have only a liferaft for 4 then 4 is the number you can carry on your boat.

Regarding EPIRB maybe you can tell me what is the country that demands for yachts a self launching EPIRP because I do not know any.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 05:29   #126
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,026
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Yes that was exaggerated.
Germany demands next to nothing for small recreational boats under 12m. Nav lights, compass, horn, a fire extinguisher, etc. No epirb and no liferaft. So i would like to understand what is realy required from me when visiting other countries.

I was once controlled in spain. They complained i had only 2 fire extinguishers instead of 4 (i had 3 more but these were not serviced in time). Also they complained that the 2 good ones were not serviced by some spanish service guy but were brand new of german origin. They could not understand what was written on them. Except that these were CO2 extinguishers and not powder based and that was also wrong.
Flares were weelmarked and BSH marked but not the type they wanted to see.
I did not have a hand lead line. For what?? Will i run aground immediately if the depth sounder quits?

The epirb was in service but resided in a housing outside with an expired hydrostatic release. The release would not work anyway as it was under the bimini. They complained about the expired release even though i doubt it was required.
Liferaft had been serviced in germany. Not by an authorized spanish guy. 24h rations were overdue but they could not read that.
Inflatable PFDs were serviced by myself which was also nogood even though there were a bunch of solid PFDs onboard.

I guess these folks had a bad day and were pissed off but that changed.
They were in the middle of checking and writing the ticket when they got a vhf call. Loud chatting, laughter, etc. My wife understood a little of the conversation, a colleague had a new born child so there was a standup party going on in the base. They had to leave immediately and did not finish the ticket. They asked me to show up next day in their office. I never did but instead left a few days later.

I have all safety equipment what i think is required and helpful. I spend my money where i think makes most sense. E.g. i have the bare minimum of flares but two expensive floating DSC handhelds.
__________________
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 05:52   #127
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,241
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikv View Post
I wonder why they all take it so seriously �� life's a joke guys
Indeed. Life's to important to be taken seriously.

De mazzel!

K
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 06:26   #128
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Santander, Spain
Boat: Actively searching for one...
Posts: 66
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Yes that was exaggerated.

I guess these folks had a bad day and were pissed off but that changed.
They were in the middle of checking and writing the ticket when they got a vhf call. Loud chatting, laughter, etc. My wife understood a little of the conversation, a colleague had a new born child so there was a standup party going on in the base. They had to leave immediately and did not finish the ticket. They asked me to show up next day in their office. I never did but instead left a few days later.

I have all safety equipment what i think is required and helpful. I spend my money where i think makes most sense. E.g. i have the bare minimum of flares but two expensive floating DSC handhelds.
You see how it looks... In fact, Spanish skippers are more concerned about having an inspection and getting a fine of up to 3.000€ for things like the ones you described than about an accident at sea. IMO, that's nothing more than a schema for favouring local safety companies. But that's nothing compared to the procedures for registering a boat (which is compulsory).
__________________
Bertie68 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 06:37   #129
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Yes that was exaggerated.
Germany demands next to nothing for small recreational boats under 12m. Nav lights, compass, horn, a fire extinguisher, etc. No epirb and no liferaft. So i would like to understand what is realy required from me when visiting other countries.

I was once controlled in spain. They complained i had only 2 fire extinguishers instead of 4 (i had 3 more but these were not serviced in time). Also they complained that the 2 good ones were not serviced by some spanish service guy but were brand new of german origin. They could not understand what was written on them. Except that these were CO2 extinguishers and not powder based and that was also wrong.
Flares were weelmarked and BSH marked but not the type they wanted to see.
I did not have a hand lead line. For what?? Will i run aground immediately if the depth sounder quits?

The epirb was in service but resided in a housing outside with an expired hydrostatic release. The release would not work anyway as it was under the bimini. They complained about the expired release even though i doubt it was required.
Liferaft had been serviced in germany. Not by an authorized spanish guy. 24h rations were overdue but they could not read that.
Inflatable PFDs were serviced by myself which was also nogood even though there were a bunch of solid PFDs onboard.

I guess these folks had a bad day and were pissed off but that changed.
They were in the middle of checking and writing the ticket when they got a vhf call. Loud chatting, laughter, etc. My wife understood a little of the conversation, a colleague had a new born child so there was a standup party going on in the base. They had to leave immediately and did not finish the ticket. They asked me to show up next day in their office. I never did but instead left a few days later.

I have all safety equipment what i think is required and helpful. I spend my money where i think makes most sense. E.g. i have the bare minimum of flares but two expensive floating DSC handhelds.
That is hard to understand unless you had the boat in Spain for more than 6 months. It was that the case?

For a boat just passing Spanish waters it should not be demanded more than what is demanded on the EU country of flag and you should have a document stating what is that material and have to show that you have it.

Another case is the one where a country of flag does not demand any safety equipment or practically none. In that case it is understandable that they demand the equipment mandatory on their country since they are the ones responsible for the safety on their waters and the ones that would have to rescue you if you have a problem. They are entitle to demand that your boat has the safety equipment they find necessary to safely sail even if you or I consider that it does not make sense.

One more reason to have an identical policy and demands in what regards safety equipment on EU. That certainly will eliminate odd equipment, like that lead line and will contribute for a more sensible and useful list.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 06:58   #130
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,241
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You are exaggerating. I had boats with register in Portugal and now in Italy and what they demand is very similar and also similar to what is demanded in Spain. I don't believe other countries are that different. The tendency is to harmonize that on EU and the biggest obstacle are some countries that don't want to hear to talk about mandatory equipment, licenses or boat inspections.
Interestingly all I can find about equipment rules on Belgian flagged boats is that there are no rules for Belgian flagged boats, but there are rules for boats circulating in Belgian territorial waters. Since most Belgian boats are in Belgian ports most of the times they have to comply with those rules.
So I think here that a reasonable application of the law would be that boats are expected to conform with the security and equipment regulations that apply in a port they habitually spend a lot of time in.
Interestingly having a lead line is compulsory in Belgian waters as well, as is having a set of oars.
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 07:27   #131
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,026
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That is hard to understand unless you had the boat in Spain for more than 6 months. It was that the case?

For a boat just passing Spanish waters it should not be demanded more than what is demanded on the EU country of flag and you should have a document stating what is that material and have to show that you have it.
I bought the boat there and it was a spanish boat before. So yes it was longer than 6 months in spanish water, but less than 6 months while under german flag. Spanish authorities lost track of the boat once it was taken off their registry, since it was not only re-flagged but also renamed and left its previous homeport the next morning. they could not know this boat had been in spain as this was the first contact with spanish officials and this check happened in a Marina enroute towards gibraltar to leave spain.

I heard several similar stories from mostly british berth neighbors and met one fellow german guy in the chandlery buying new fire extinguishers because he was caught with outdated ones.
__________________
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2015, 09:27   #132
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
...
I heard several similar stories from mostly british berth neighbors and met one fellow german guy in the chandlery buying new fire extinguishers because he was caught with outdated ones.
I believe to have aboard fire extinguishers is a basic security measure and even if the demanded number can be different, I believe they are in all the lists in what regards different EU countries in what regards mandatory material to have aboard on a yacht with an engine.

Having aboard expired ones is a no no and I believe all maritime authorities would object to that.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2015, 03:44   #133
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: the Med
Boat: Nauta 54' by Scott Kaufman/S&S - 1989
Posts: 1,059
Images: 3
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Sir, Pelagic and Sandibar gave you the correct advice.

Be humble and answers (I don't say COMPLY TO).

Boat is Belgium territory, yes, but in foreign waters local rules apply. They have the right to inspect, check identity, document, insurance.

Of course, they can not pretend you have documents which are not required under your flag.

As to safety devices, I would comply to the highest requirements, since they can argue that you sail domestic waters...back&forth, not on passage. (guess)

I hate police, let's take them as they are, a necessary annoyance in modern states. Pirates were worse, .. maybe!?
__________________
TheThunderbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2015, 21:35   #134
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Azores - Portugal
Boat: Fibramar Farilhao 600 (6.0m)
Posts: 10
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Hello guys!

I want to clear something up, I tried before but I don't think I was understood.
I am not against any police officer or law enforcement. In fact, I have family that are officers and I have several other agents of whom we both consider eachother as family just as my brother is family to me.
However, I do not like to be pushed around even if it is the case of an officer is overstepping his "jurisdiction" which unfortunately it does happen.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quoting directly from the Belgium Mobilit website - it is the official Belgium law "regulator" (that is what I was told by the Belgium embassy here in Portugal, to get the laws on that website)
Naviguer à l'étranger | SPF Mobilité
"Navigation en mer Les bateaux qui naviguent en mer à l’étranger, pour lesquels une lettre de pavillon est exigée, et qui sont en possession d’une lettre de pavillon belge, sont considérés comme des bateaux auxquels la réglementation belge est d’application. Dans le présent cas par exemple, cela signifie qu'aucun brevet de conduite n’est exigé, compte tenu qu’il n’est pas obligatoire en Belgique. A noter toutefois que si vous louez un bateau dans un pays où un brevet de conduite est exigé, en tant que belge, cette réglementation vous est également applicable."


Basically what it says is: The boats which navigate sea abroad, which are obligated to have a "Lettre de Pavillon", and of which are in possession of "Lettre de Pavillon Belge", are considered as being boats over which the Belgium rules are to be applied. In this case for example, it means that when no driving permit is demanded because it is not demanded in Belgium you are not demanded to have one.


The last phrase is for when someone Rents a boat abroad, which in this case, if that country demands a driving permit, you are obligated to have one.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have been reading a lot of EU laws these past few days and it is taking a looooot of hours to sort all the information we've been able to gather..



The most important so far is the The Schengen Agreement.
Please have a read here on wikipedia link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

Of which Belgium and Portugal are both part of the sum.

Also, that so called "law of the six months in a period of 365days continuosly" some of you have mentioned, falls, on what you also call, "grey areas" because if you are an EU citizen and have a boat under an EU member-state flag and are sailing to another EU member-state, According to the EU laws, you are not obligated to tell anyone, unless they ask you, that you are leaving that country and going to another EU member-state country. It
There are exceptions though, mostly regarding comercial stuff, and Non-EU citizens, but my situation is not one of them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did not say the boats under Belgium flags could not be inspected.
I said that the local Policia Maritima (the one that tried to inspect me), that specific authority does not have the right to "inspect" beyond some documents according to Belgium laws unless they have somesort of elected person by Belgium authorities in order to be able to board and do a full inspection which they did not have. (I'm missing the correct expression on the "somesort of elected person by Belgium authorities" but that's basically what it says..)
I have this above information saved here somewhere but can't find it right now and I am too tired...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the the security equipment demanded by Belgium laws here you can read:
http://pavillonbelge.be/onewebmedia/...ite-a-bord.pdf

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of you have also mentioned something about the ICC permit but if you are not a member(citizen or resident) of a country that has signed that ICC agreement you can not obtain an ICC.
And so you know, Portugal is one of the few countries in the EU that don't consider the ICC as a "formal" driving permit but MIGHT accept it.

What is the ICC? | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did not directly quote any of you guys that replied because it would make this reply of mine basically unreadable but I did try to answer as many doubts as possible..

I'm still awaiting a response to the letter the lawyer gave us to send to the Policia Maritima countering their allegations so I don't have any info on that yet..

Stay safe out there!
Vando
__________________
Breezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2015, 16:10   #135
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: still in a roll of fiberglass around Cape Town
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,201
Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

There is one point that I believe you do not understan yet. Once the boat is tied to a Portuguese dock (hence not possible to claim "inoccent passage") then Portuguese laws apply to you and the boat. Belgian rules will only apply if Portuguese rules say so and Portuguese rules will still apply in that case. The text you got in Belgium can say whatever someone wrote in it, but it will not be applicable in Portugal unless Portuguese rules say so.

Sent from my GT-I9192 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Portugal

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Canadian flag or change to British flag on buying boat drcot3 Dollars & Cents 5 26-02-2015 12:09
One Way Ticket to US, Leaving by Boat mkjhartmann Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 20 20-10-2013 15:02
Aussie Flag or US Flag on Vessel ? AllezCat Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 48 25-05-2011 06:14
Airline Ticket from Puerto Rico to Aruba ? Llamster Atlantic & the Caribbean 12 25-11-2009 11:43
Tough ticket's for wimp's cat man do Off Topic Forum 0 23-01-2007 19:56



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.