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Old 23-10-2015, 00:39   #91
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
In some cases the comity does not apply to the absence of a requirement to have a certificate of competence.
We've been there.

The problem is this: What if you are a citizen of a country that does not require (or even issue) any form of "certificate of competence" for pleasure craft.

Granted, now that even Belgium has finally started issuing ICC's to anybody asking for them the point is largely moot. But for a long time, I myself did not have a practical way to comply with the requirement to show competence. So I just didn't. In stead I had a letter from my government explaining my situation. This was accepted twice by a Croatian port captain...

Just to compare with something we are familiar with: Driving licences. Belgium didn't introducce driving licences till 1968, and driving tests were not required until 1977. Yet I do know that for example my grandfather drove his truck all over Europe. Without a licence...
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Old 23-10-2015, 00:44   #92
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
But, that's not between 'Holland' and Belgium then is it? And if he is referring to the Netherlands then he's referring to the mid 1500's early 1600's, which is like, omg, he's referring to something that happend more than 500 years ago..
What I was referring to was that "Belgium" and "The Netherlands" were used interchangeably until at least 1815. They basically meant the same, and the peoples of both areas didn't really see themselves as different.
For example. For the French for example "Belge" referred to anyone from the low countries.
The separation in "The Netherlands" and "Belgium" in 1830 was purely artificial, and engineered by the major powers of the day, who were affraid that the Netherlands would become to powerfull.
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Old 23-10-2015, 04:02   #93
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Hi guys,

I just called the Portuguese police (Policia Marítima ), because I have this habit that..... when in doubt go to the source and get a straight answer.

So, in a case of a Belgium boat with a Belgium captain: No licence is obliged and the boat only has to comply to the Belgium requirements.

2nd case, Belgium boat with a Portuguese captain: The boat complies with the Belgium requirements, but the captain is required to have legal licence to operate the vessel.

If a foreigner boat stays in Portugal for more then 6 months, then tax should be paid.
This tax (IUC) is do for boats with more then 20KW~26hp, and you can calculate it multiplying 2.59€ per KW.
Here there is a "grey area", because if you don´t get checked by the Policia Marítima they can´t proof that you are in our country for the required time, so they look away. They do not want to arras people, even if they see the boats in the marina for years.

Portuguese Laws and requirements are pretty tight compared with Belgium ones. The same boat that could come from Belgium to Portugal under Belgium safety requirements, in Portugal couldn´t go more then 2 Nm out of the harbor. So some people bend the rules, and navigate grey areas.

In this particular case, this guy lives in an Island in the middle of the Atlantic.
He has to have a valid licence to operate the vessel, if he has one that´s simple.
He is due on 432€ of tax......Now, he only has to make proof that the 6m 225hp boat has not navigated exclusively in Portuguese waters

Now he´s only hope is good will & grey areas

A4
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Old 23-10-2015, 04:22   #94
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by aqu4tro View Post
Hi guys,

I just called the Portuguese police (Policia Marítima ), because I have this habit that..... when in doubt go to the source and get a straight answer.

So, in a case of a Belgium boat with a Belgium captain: No licence is obliged and the boat only has to comply to the Belgium requirements.

2nd case, Belgium boat with a Portuguese captain: The boat complies with the Belgium requirements, but the captain is required to have legal licence to operate the vessel.

If a foreigner boat stays in Portugal for more then 6 months, then tax should be paid.
This tax (IUC) is do for boats with more then 20KW~26hp, and you can calculate it multiplying 2.59€ per KW.
Here there is a "grey area", because if you don´t get checked by the Policia Marítima they can´t proof that you are in our country for the required time, so they look away. They do not want to arras people, even if they see the boats in the marina for years.

Portuguese Laws and requirements are pretty tight compared with Belgium ones. The same boat that could come from Belgium to Portugal under Belgium safety requirements, in Portugal couldn´t go more then 2 Nm out of the harbor. So some people bend the rules, and navigate grey areas.

In this particular case, this guy lives in an Island in the middle of the Atlantic.
He has to have a valid licence to operate the vessel, if he has one that´s simple.
He is due on 432€ of tax......Now, he only has to make proof that the 6m 225hp boat has not navigated exclusively in Portuguese waters

Now he´s only hope is good will & grey areas

A4
Said this a few posts back.. only trouble is.. its near impossible to convince a Portuguese they are Wrong.. ahahahaa
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Old 23-10-2015, 04:28   #95
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

However, I think that size matters. If (real case) you board a french-registered ferry in Spain in order to get to UK, everything that happens on the ferry (what you buy/consume aboard, or a crime is commited) is subject to french laws, even if it happens within UK or Spanish territorial waters. I suppose this would also apply to the required competences of the crew, and safety norms. In fact, that's why so many vessels are registered under convenience flags with simpler requirements.
I see no reason why a small boat should not be treated equally, except, as mentioned, the nationality of the captain. Or the balance of power...
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Old 23-10-2015, 05:29   #96
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Thumbs up Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by aqu4tro View Post
Hi guys,

I just called the Portuguese police (Policia Marítima ), because I have this habit that..... when in doubt go to the source and get a straight answer.

So, in a case of a Belgium boat with a Belgium captain: No licence is obliged and the boat only has to comply to the Belgium requirements.

2nd case, Belgium boat with a Portuguese captain: The boat complies with the Belgium requirements, but the captain is required to have legal licence to operate the vessel.


A4
Excellent, thank you!
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Old 23-10-2015, 05:42   #97
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Bertie68 View Post
However, I think that size matters. If (real case) you board a french-registered ferry in Spain in order to get to UK, everything that happens on the ferry (what you buy/consume aboard, or a crime is commited) is subject to french laws, even if it happens within UK or Spanish territorial waters. I suppose this would also apply to the required competences of the crew, and safety norms. In fact, that's why so many vessels are registered under convenience flags with simpler requirements.
I see no reason why a small boat should not be treated equally, except, as mentioned, the nationality of the captain. Or the balance of power...
Not strictly true. The Spanish or UK authorities MAY cede authority to the French, but if a crime is committed in their territorial waters, they have jurisdiction.

And the "rules" for vessels travelling internationally are different to the "rules" for a boat which is permanently domiciled in a country.

There are a number of boats in the marina here which are flagged in other countries, but if a crime is committed on board one, the local police certainly won't call in the Australian, Malaysian or whatever police.
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Old 23-10-2015, 05:46   #98
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Sandibar View Post
Well, I tried to dig up official info, but couldn't find any. I've heard the claim from multiple sources, some are online with links to official sites that are now down. So can't back this up. Maybe stara's comment clears this up somewhat:



Since I plan to possibly move the boat to Portugal next year, I'm very interested in the topic and would myself appreciate a definitive answer, preferably from some official source. Don't have a license, since one is not required here. If necessary I will go for the ICC.

From a pragmatic point of view, as has been pointed out in this thread also I think a courteous and low key approach with officials will help, even if one is not able to fulfill all local requirements.
Ok, I will get it for you. The Portuguese law that rules pleasure boats it is this one:

http://www.idesporto.pt/ficheiros/file/DL_124_2004.pdf

The relevant parts to you are this ones:

First the definitions:

b) «Embarcação de recreio estrangeira» a que não arvore pavilhão nacional ou de um Estado membro da União Europeia; c) «Navegador de recreio estrangeiro» o navegador que não tenha residência em Portugal; d) «Autoridade marítima» as capitanias dos portos; e) «Porto de registo» o porto onde se efectuou o registo da ER;

A foreign boat is one that is not Portuguese or EC flagged. A foreign navigator is one that does not have residence in Portugal. The Maritime authority are the port Captain office. The port of register is the port where the boat has the register.

Some interesting stuff here: a EC flagged boat is not a foreign boat and a foreigner, even if a member of EC, that has a permanent residence in Portugal, is not, in what regards this rules, considered a foreigner and that means that in what regards licenses is submitted to the same requirements of the Portuguese and need a Portuguese boat license.

Artigo 30.º Cartas atribuídas ao abrigo do regime de equiparação
....
3 - Podem também ser emitidas cartas com dispensa de exame quando solicitadas por titulares de cartas emitidas por administrações de países estrangeiros desde que estas se encontrem no período de validade e seja feita prova de que foram emitidas em condições análogas às previstas no presente Regulamento.

Artigo 34.º Reconhecimento de cartas estrangeiras

1 - As cartas de navegador de recreio ou os documentos equivalentes emitidos pelas administrações dos países membros da União Europeia são automaticamente reconhecidos em Portugal nos termos e para os efeitos do presente Regulamento.
2 - As cartas de navegador de recreio ou os documentos equivalente emitidos pelas administrações de países terceiros podem ser reconhecidos pelo IPTM desde que a sua emissão tenha como pressuposto o cumprimento de requisitos análogos aos exigidos no presente Regulamento.

Above is what is relevant regarding to the need of a foreigner to have a license to sail a yacht on Portuguese waters. What is said is that you would need a license equivalent to the license needed in Portugal for sailing on a given set of conditions that depend from the distance of a safe harbor, Coastal, offshore or Oceanic. There are several types of licenses in Portugal (similar to the Spanish ones).

They can demand that for sailing offshore you have a similar license with the same requisites of the Portuguese one. If they follow the law the ICC would not be enough on most cases and it is not even recognized by the Portuguese law since Portugal did not sign that convention. Even if the ICC would be accepted it would only correspond to a very basic Portuguese sailing license that would only allow you to sail to few miles out of a safe harbor.

In practice they don't pose problems and if somebody shows a license, any kind of license, they will facilitate it and kind of accept it. If you have the bad taste of starting discussing your "rights" or what is legal or not they can demand that you fully comply with the law in what regards a needed license.
However if you have a problem in Portugal regarding an accident and are subject to a civil or criminal lawsuit a judge will have not the same view in what regards your license and it will follow the law to the letter.

CAPÍTULO XI Embarcações e navegadores de recreio estrangeiros

Artigo 43.º Disposições aplicáveis às embarcações de recreio e aos navegadores de recreio estrangeiros

1 - As ER estrangeiras só podem permanecer em águas nacionais por um período de 6 meses em cada período de 12 meses.
2 - O período de permanência de ER estrangeiras em águas nacionais pode ser prorrogado por mais seis meses, a requerer pelos proprietários das ER ou pelos seus legítimos representantes às autoridades aduaneiras, devendo ser observadas as medidas que estas autoridades considerem necessárias, relativamente à utilização das ER em águas nacionais.
3 - Às ER estrangeiras utilizadas em águas nacionais é aplicável a Convenção Aduaneira Relativa à Importação Temporária para Uso Privado de Aeronaves e Barcos de Recreio, celebrada em Genebra em 18 de Maio de 1956.

Regarding a foreign boat, it only can be in national waters for a 6 month period out of 12 but that permanency can be extended for more 6 months but on that case the authorities can demand that all the measures that they consider necessaries to be used on Portuguese waters and that strictly speaking means that the boat has to comply with the Portuguese laws regarding Portuguese pleasure boats, even if I doubt that they will be strict regarding that.

Regarding safety equipment needed aboard on foreign yachts the law is not very clear but in my opinion will allow them to demand the same equipment needed by Portuguese boats in the case of none being demanded on the country where the boat is flagged even if I doubt they will enforce that.

CAPÍTULO V Segurança e equipamentos das embarcações de recreio
...
4 - Os equipamentos das ER devem respeitar as normas nacionais ou internacionais aplicáveis, podendo o IPTM elaborar as necessárias especificações técnicas a publicar na 3.ª série do Diário da República, caso não existam normas aplicáveis a determinado equipamento.
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Old 23-10-2015, 05:49   #99
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

OP should have gotten his certification first, add a coastal navigation certificate, then go buy a boat, instead of scheming with a Dutch flag on a Belgium registered boat and resisting officialdom.
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Old 23-10-2015, 06:30   #100
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
What I was referring to was that "Belgium" and "The Netherlands" were used interchangeably until at least 1815. They basically meant the same, and the peoples of both areas didn't really see themselves as different.
For example. For the French for example "Belge" referred to anyone from the low countries.
The separation in "The Netherlands" and "Belgium" in 1830 was purely artificial, and engineered by the major powers of the day, who were affraid that the Netherlands would become to powerfull.
ok, I follow you now. confused me when you said Belgium and Holland.
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Old 23-10-2015, 06:36   #101
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Ok, I will get it for you. The Portuguese law that rules pleasure boats it is this one:

http://www.idesporto.pt/ficheiros/file/DL_124_2004.pdf

The relevant parts to you are this ones:

First the definitions:

b) «Embarcação de recreio estrangeira» a que não arvore pavilhão nacional ou de um Estado membro da União Europeia; c) «Navegador de recreio estrangeiro» o navegador que não tenha residência em Portugal; d) «Autoridade marítima» as capitanias dos portos; e) «Porto de registo» o porto onde se efectuou o registo da ER;

A foreign boat is one that is not Portuguese or EC flagged. A foreign navigator is one that does not have residence in Portugal. The Maritime authority are the port Captain office. The port of register is the port where the boat has the register.

Some interesting stuff here: a EC flagged boat is not a foreign boat and a foreigner, even if a member of EC, that has a permanent residence in Portugal, is not, in what regards this rules, considered a foreigner and that means that in what regards licenses is submitted to the same requirements of the Portuguese and need a Portuguese boat license.

Artigo 30.º Cartas atribuídas ao abrigo do regime de equiparação
....
3 - Podem também ser emitidas cartas com dispensa de exame quando solicitadas por titulares de cartas emitidas por administrações de países estrangeiros desde que estas se encontrem no período de validade e seja feita prova de que foram emitidas em condições análogas às previstas no presente Regulamento.

Artigo 34.º Reconhecimento de cartas estrangeiras

1 - As cartas de navegador de recreio ou os documentos equivalentes emitidos pelas administrações dos países membros da União Europeia são automaticamente reconhecidos em Portugal nos termos e para os efeitos do presente Regulamento.
2 - As cartas de navegador de recreio ou os documentos equivalente emitidos pelas administrações de países terceiros podem ser reconhecidos pelo IPTM desde que a sua emissão tenha como pressuposto o cumprimento de requisitos análogos aos exigidos no presente Regulamento.

Above is what is relevant regarding to the need of a foreigner to have a license to sail a yacht on Portuguese waters. What is said is that you would need a license equivalent to the license needed in Portugal for sailing on a given set of conditions that depend from the distance of a safe harbor, Coastal, offshore or Oceanic. There are several types of licenses in Portugal (similar to the Spanish ones).

They can demand that for sailing offshore you have a similar license with the same requisites of the Portuguese one. If they follow the law the ICC would not be enough on most cases and it is not even recognized by the Portuguese law since Portugal did not sign that convention. Even if the ICC would be accepted it would only correspond to a very basic Portuguese sailing license that would only allow you to sail to few miles out of a safe harbor.

In practice they don't pose problems and if somebody shows a license, any kind of license, they will facilitate it and kind of accept it. If you have the bad taste of starting discussing your "rights" or what is legal or not they can demand that you fully comply with the law in what regards a needed license.
However if you have a problem in Portugal regarding an accident and are subject to a civil or criminal lawsuit a judge will have not the same view in what regards your license and it will follow the law to the letter.

CAPÍTULO XI Embarcações e navegadores de recreio estrangeiros

Artigo 43.º Disposições aplicáveis às embarcações de recreio e aos navegadores de recreio estrangeiros

1 - As ER estrangeiras só podem permanecer em águas nacionais por um período de 6 meses em cada período de 12 meses.
2 - O período de permanência de ER estrangeiras em águas nacionais pode ser prorrogado por mais seis meses, a requerer pelos proprietários das ER ou pelos seus legítimos representantes às autoridades aduaneiras, devendo ser observadas as medidas que estas autoridades considerem necessárias, relativamente à utilização das ER em águas nacionais.
3 - Às ER estrangeiras utilizadas em águas nacionais é aplicável a Convenção Aduaneira Relativa à Importação Temporária para Uso Privado de Aeronaves e Barcos de Recreio, celebrada em Genebra em 18 de Maio de 1956.

Regarding a foreign boat, it only can be in national waters for a 6 month period out of 12 but that permanency can be extended for more 6 months but on that case the authorities can demand that all the measures that they consider necessaries to be used on Portuguese waters and that strictly speaking means that the boat has to comply with the Portuguese laws regarding Portuguese pleasure boats, even if I doubt that they will be strict regarding that.

Regarding safety equipment needed aboard on foreign yachts the law is not very clear but in my opinion will allow them to demand the same equipment needed by Portuguese boats in the case of none being demanded on the country where the boat is flagged even if I doubt they will enforce that.

CAPÍTULO V Segurança e equipamentos das embarcações de recreio
...
4 - Os equipamentos das ER devem respeitar as normas nacionais ou internacionais aplicáveis, podendo o IPTM elaborar as necessárias especificações técnicas a publicar na 3.ª série do Diário da República, caso não existam normas aplicáveis a determinado equipamento.
thank you. Can you still clarify the following: article 30 talks of foreign countries, i.e. non-EU countries. Article 34-1 is about EU issued recreational licenses and states that such are automatically recognized by Portugal? 34-2 is again about third countries, i.e. non-EU, and states that certificates by them can be recognized if they comply with PT-requirements- right?

Doesn't this in essence exactly mean that EU-skippers with their own boats only need that certificate that is provided by their home country? Or am I missing something in the google translation?
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Old 23-10-2015, 06:45   #102
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Not strictly true. The Spanish or UK authorities MAY cede authority to the French, but if a crime is committed in their territorial waters, they have jurisdiction.

And the "rules" for vessels travelling internationally are different to the "rules" for a boat which is permanently domiciled in a country.

There are a number of boats in the marina here which are flagged in other countries, but if a crime is committed on board one, the local police certainly won't call in the Australian, Malaysian or whatever police.
I stand corrected... In fact it looks that the field of maritime law is one with lots of gray areas. Some interested reading: If I'm on a cruise ship, what laws do I have to adhere to? - HowStuffWorks
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Old 23-10-2015, 07:02   #103
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
...
The separation in "The Netherlands" and "Belgium" in 1830 was purely artificial, and engineered by the major powers of the day, who were affraid that the Netherlands would become to powerfull.
Not as simple as that I mean regarding Netherlands and Belgium you may be right but not in what regards Holland and Flanders (where the Flemish live). Holland is at the heart of modern Netherlands as a political state.

I have Flemish friends and they don't feel at all like Dutch (they use to joke about Dutch and probably that is reciprocal regarding Dutch versus Flemish).

Dutch and Flemish have different religions (Protestants and Catholics) and only that is important in what regards a cultural difference since a religion is much more than a spiritual thing but shapes most of the moral and many social rules and values.

Politically they had also have been separated and not only in 1830: From 1581 to 1714 it was a Spanish territory (while Holland was independent and a sea powerful state) and before they had also separated political histories:

Flanders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders
Holland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland
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Old 23-10-2015, 08:59   #104
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Sandibar View Post
thank you. Can you still clarify the following: article 30 talks of foreign countries, i.e. non-EU countries. Article 34-1 is about EU issued recreational licenses and states that such are automatically recognized by Portugal?...

Doesn't this in essence exactly mean that EU-skippers with their own boats only need that certificate that is provided by their home country? Or am I missing something in the google translation?
Article 34.1 is only about EU issued licenses in other EU countries. They are recognized automatically but that does not mean that they will be valid on all circumstances and types of navigation since they say "nos termos deste regulamento" and that means according with these rules and point 2 states regarding those rules :desde que a sua emissão tenha como pressuposto o cumprimento de requisitos análogos aos exigidos no presente Regulamento and that means that the recognized licenses have to be similar in scope and exigence to the Portuguese ones regarding sailing in different places (Coastal, Offshore).

But that is what says the law and I doubt that there would be any problem with another EU citizen holding any type of sailing license from another EC country even if i heard about some problems in Spain. The Spanish has as part of the law an annex that says what are the licenses automatically recognized (even from non EC countries) and regarding EC countries what is the equivalence between them and the Spanish ones.

I have looked for a similar legal document in Portugal and could not find one and on the absence of that I guess that any UE license would be regarded as valid because the authorities would not be able to know what is the correspondence with the Portuguese ones.


Here you can have most of the relevant documents about boating in Portugal:
Legislação | www.ancruzeiros.pt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandibar View Post
34-2 is again about third countries, i.e. non-EU, and states that certificates by them can be recognized if they comply with PT-requirements- right?
I think the demand to recognize a license should be made here:
..:.. IPTM - Instituto Portuário e dos Transportes Marítimos - Delegação do Norte e Douro ..:..

Ask them what licence you need to sail in Portugal and probably they will reply quickly (they reply quickly to foreigners and slowly to Portuguese LOL)

But nobody does that and as I said any official license from another country will not normally raise any problems, even if not an EU one.
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Old 23-10-2015, 09:16   #105
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Not strictly true. The Spanish or UK authorities MAY cede authority to the French, but if a crime is committed in their territorial waters, they have jurisdiction.
And the "rules" for vessels travelling internationally are different to the "rules" for a boat which is permanently domiciled in a country.
There are a number of boats in the marina here which are flagged in other countries, but if a crime is committed on board one, the local police certainly won't call in the Australian, Malaysian or whatever police.
But what if something takes place in a boat, which is considered a crime where the boat is docked but not where it is registered?
Say, smoking pot, or a gay relationship, for example.

And then there is the opposite: Acts considered illegal by the flag state but accepable where one is docked...?
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