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Old 22-10-2015, 07:38   #76
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
In this situation it is silly beyond belief to attempt to assert your "rights". If you really believe your situation comes under the law of Comity then you should get a lawyer and take it to court (like in New Zealand).

The best advice you've gotten here is to suck it up - go down to the police station and tell them you were having a bad hair day and pay up.


Bottom line, when one is in another country then there are two options; obey the rules as applied locally or fight them and deal with the cost, financial, legal and other, for doing so.

Sometimes it just makes sense to be pragmatic and do what it takes to get along when traveling in another country.
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Old 22-10-2015, 14:54   #77
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Simonsays View Post
they do!
both that is.



look up "southern netherlands" or "spanish netherlands"
that is around the 17oo's
But, that's not between 'Holland' and Belgium then is it? And if he is referring to the Netherlands then he's referring to the mid 1500's early 1600's, which is like, omg, he's referring to something that happend more than 500 years ago..
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Old 22-10-2015, 15:08   #78
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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But, that's not between 'Holland' and Belgium then is it? And if he is referring to the Netherlands then he's referring to the mid 1500's early 1600's, which is like, omg, he's referring to something that happend more than 500 years ago..
Rome was founded 753 B.C., Londinium around 50 A.D.
500 years ago is "recent" history ,)
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Old 22-10-2015, 15:35   #79
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Rome was founded 753 B.C., Londinium around 50 A.D.
500 years ago is "recent" history ,)
Dude, if you want to hold a grudge for something that happened more than 500 years ago, you go for it
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Old 22-10-2015, 15:42   #80
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Dude, if you want to hold a grudge for something that happened more than 500 years ago, you go for it
it's never the reason but always the excuse.
like religion ,)
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Old 22-10-2015, 16:08   #81
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Rome was founded 753 B.C., Londinium around 50 A.D.
500 years ago is "recent" history ,)
500yrs is ancient history if your talkin with a bunch of umerican's heck we havnt even been a country half that long
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Old 22-10-2015, 16:37   #82
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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500yrs is ancient history if your talkin with a bunch of umerican's heck we havnt even been a country half that long
there's even worse nowadays:
people who can not fathom the time before the internet.
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Old 22-10-2015, 19:48   #83
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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there's even worse nowadays:
people who can not fathom the time before the internet.
or cellphones
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Old 22-10-2015, 20:05   #84
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

How about the time after the internet yet to come
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Old 22-10-2015, 20:15   #85
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Bertie68 View Post
Anyway, there is sort of a gray area... I'm not a lawyer, but for what I have read, there was recently a sentence by an European Court stating that a Belgium registered vessel sailing in Spanish territorial waters is not required to fulfill Spanish regulations in matters of safety, etc. But Spanish authorities have the right to demand from the captain a "valid license", which is not a very clear term, as some countries don't require anything at all.

To complicate matters further, each maritime region in Spain has somewhat different criteria, and the Coast Guard seem not to be aware of the latest juridical status, so in plain words, it's a mess... I guess in Portugal must be something like this.
I believe it sums it. Every EC country has the right to demand on their flagged yachts to have aboard the safety requirement that they see as necessary, according with the type of navigation. If the boat has the safety equipment required on the EC country the boat is flagged then it is legally alright sailing on any EC country.

Regarding licences it is a completely different matter and each country has the right to demand the qualification they seem fit to sail on their waters...but each countries have an official list of the licences of other countries (including out of EC) that are valid on their waters.

On most cases authorities don't want to raise problems and they accept any licence but they can become more demanding and really look if your licence really is on that list and if it is appropriated for the waters you are sailing in, so I would be, and I am, polite when dealing with the authorities of any country I am sailing in.

I am Portuguese, I own an Italian flagged boat and I have a Portuguese sailing licence and I can sail with that licence in any EC country and abroad on the countries where one is demanded provided they accept it but since I am a Portuguese citizen, for sailing in Portugal I have to have a Portuguese licence and there are several of them according to the waters I want to sail (coastal, offshore).

That's like the Italian mate has said, an Italian in Italy needs an Italian licence and any other will not be accepted, a Spanish in Spain will need an Spanish licence (also several types) and so on.

So, bad news for the OP. If he is Portuguese he will need a Portuguese licence to sail in Portuguese waters.
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Old 22-10-2015, 20:23   #86
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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I think it's very simple. Clearly it was best just to show that the equipment requested, but the basic rule is that your nationality is Portuguese, and you have to respct the Portuguese rule. all you can do now is to run awy to Belgiom
In Europe this is incorrect. For the most part if you are a EU citizen resident in another EU country they will treat you the same as if you were a citizen of the country in which you are a resident. Example: If you are Spanish and established as a resident of the UK then you get the same benefits (health care, etc) as a native Brit that lives in the UK, you need ot have a UK driver´s licence, etc. . Residence is what matters.
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Old 22-10-2015, 20:33   #87
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Breezer View Post
According to the Belgium Flag certificate I am not obligated to have a driving permit for sea and I can only be boarded and inspected by Belgium authorities and the local Customs.
Also, according to Belgium Flag rules I also not obligated to show any other documents nor security equipment to the local authorities here in Portugal.
That is only true while you are in Belgian territorial waters (12 miles).

If you are in international waters but still inside EEZ (say 200 miles) the coastal country can inspect you for certain things (such as fishing)

If you are in another country´s territorial waters (12 miles typically) you are subject to their laws. In many countries the local law says that for a "tourist" boat they will apply comity. In some cases the comity does not apply to the absence of a requirement to have a certificate of competence. In summary, Belgian rules will only apply to a Belgian boat that has already cleared into Portugal (hence not eligible for innocent passage treatment) if the Portuguese law says so. I am afraid tha is not the case regarding competency certificates.

See these two links from the RYA:
Law of the Sea and the Coastal State | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA
What is the ICC? | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA

Key portion is:
"By voluntarily entering a port or the internal waters of another country a vessel submits to the jurisdiction of that country i.e. the Coastal or Port State, as Internal Waters are considered to be an integral part of a country. The authority of a state over foreign vessels in its internal waters is the same as those for a foreigner on its soil, which of course includes boat crews going out for dinner, sight seeing, shopping and generally making use of facilities ashore in their destination port.
The Coastal State however will generally refrain from interfering with the internal affairs of foreign flagged vessels as a matter of “comity” – courteous recognition accorded by one nation to the laws and institutions of another. So unless you attract the attention of the authorities for example because your boat is deemed not to be seaworthy, you will generally be allowed to go about your business as a visitor without hindrance.

There are some elements of Coastal State Law that a visiting boat may be asked to comply with and it is these regulations that the RYA does its best to keep abreast of. The most common is for the skipper of the vessel to be required to prove that he or she is competent to be in command of the vessel.
A country may specify requirements such as a crew list or specific publications that must be carried (e.g. a local almanac / International regulations for preventing collisions at sea). Vessels navigating the European inland waters are generally required to carry a copy of the local rules (which may be written in the native language of the country concerned). It is important to ensure you are aware of all such requirements.
"
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Old 22-10-2015, 20:34   #88
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
In Europe this is incorrect. For the most part if you are a EU citizen resident in another EU country they will treat you the same as if you were a citizen of the country in which you are a resident. Example: If you are Spanish and established as a resident of the UK then you get the same benefits (health care, etc) as a native Brit that lives in the UK, you need ot have a UK driver´s licence, etc. . Residence is what matters.
In any country if you refuse to show safety equipment (because it is out of date!) to legal authorities you are going to have a bad day.
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Old 22-10-2015, 20:48   #89
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
...
I don't know the Portuguese law - here in Denmark, it is not legal for a Dane (Danish legal resident) to own and operate a boat sailing under a foreign flag. If he is a legal Danish Resident - then the boat must be Danish-flagged. Perhaps the Portuguese law is similar.
....
No, that is not the case in Portugal regarding EC flagged boats, not in Portugal, Italy, Croatia and I think not also in Greece. I don't know about the others but I am pretty sure that on most cases you can own in your country flagged boats of other EC countries. In Spain I think that they also have a problem with that that has to do with a tax their boats pay as new that does not exist on other EC countries.
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Old 22-10-2015, 20:56   #90
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by stara View Post
...
...

Belgian flagged boat operated by Portuguese resident in Portuguese waters: the operator needs to have operator license as per Portuguese regulations. If the boat has been in Portuguese waters longer than 6 months it needs to be registered and equipped according to Portuguese requirements.

.....
Where do you get this information from? Lot's of Portuguese owned boats (residents) with French flag around here for years. Yes it is true in what regards the licence. Please show me where you got the information in what regards the need to register the boat with a Portuguese flag.
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