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Old 21-10-2015, 18:27   #61
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
In many (most?) countries random road blocks and vehicle/licence/breath tests are the norm.
And to carry this analogy back to the OP, "In many (most?) countries arguing the toss with the local water coppers is the not the norm, rather saving that argument for the judge is the norm"

AFAIK
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Old 21-10-2015, 18:39   #62
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pirate Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
And to carry this analogy back to the OP, "In many (most?) countries arguing the toss with the local water coppers is the not the norm, rather saving that argument for the judge is the norm"

AFAIK
And... even that will get you a slap round the head 9 times outa 10...
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Old 21-10-2015, 20:37   #63
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Few of you mixing up Holland and Belgium. Insulting both nationalities😀


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That would be because the thread title says Holland and the op states Belgium. Confusion reigns
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Old 21-10-2015, 22:13   #64
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by RNW View Post
That would be because the thread title says Holland and the op states Belgium. Confusion reigns
Yep, and got a ticket in Protugal
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Old 21-10-2015, 22:50   #65
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Well my Belgian friends are pretty clear that they speak Flemish not Dutch. According to them Dutch is just a dialect of Flemish.

My Dutch friends on the other hand, have a slightly different point of view.
Just like Australians insisting that it is the Brits that have the funny accent...
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Old 21-10-2015, 23:36   #66
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Breezer View Post
Yes, that's what I said, you said you were a police officer...

and could you pull up to a diplomatic vehicle without him had committed any violation would you be able to simply stop him? I do not know

You are however still saying that you could not charge the gent because you didn't have the authority to do so (by authority I mean the "right") and it had to be the country's own embassy to deal with the issue.
Which takes me back to my issue here, for flying under the Belgium flag as we were told we would be abiding by Belgium laws.


Still, All I need is to know what laws and articles say that pleasure crafts running under the Belgium flag are subject to Belgium laws.

Or, what laws actually revoke those same Belgium flag flying pleasure crafts laws if there are any.

It's the same as if you were told by government authority what you can or can not do and you were issued a ticket for something you were told you could do.. which is what is happening with my case
You left a lot out of your original post.

Regardless, you're learning by experience that international travel means when in Rome, do as the Romans do. As many have told you, what you think applies at home, doesn't apply elsewhere. Get used to it, as you are just digging yourself a deeper hole by relying on the old, "Well, that's not the way WE do it" gambit.

You have obligations when you enter a country, and it is your responsibility to understand what those are. Many here have already made the best suggestions your going to get as to how to attempt to mitigate your issue.
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Old 22-10-2015, 00:54   #67
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Given that Holland and Belgium once meant the same thing, and that the messy divorce Imposed on this nation wasn't really wanted by anyone, this can be understood...



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Don't think anyone but you would know that😉


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Old 22-10-2015, 01:06   #68
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Don't think anyone but you would know that😉


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yes, I'm lost. I was reading up on 'Hollands' history today and couldn't find this.
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Old 22-10-2015, 01:10   #69
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

The law the OP contiues to refer to is called the Law of Comity and is an international law which notes that ships plying the high seas simply cannot be expected to comply (or know about) all the regulations countries around the world have for ships registered (flagged) in their countries.

So it is generally recognized that ships on "innocent passage" are only subject to the laws of their flag state. "Innocent passage" is usually also allowed for ship entering a harbour for a night or for loading/unloading.

Similarly, it is obvious that National Coast Guard officers simply can't be aware of the laws of every flag state in the world. And while some Coast Guard officers may choose to believe the OP that as a Belgian flagged boat he is not required to have anything - other officers may not choose to believe this.

I don't know the Portuguese law - here in Denmark, it is not legal for a Dane (Danish legal resident) to own and operate a boat sailing under a foreign flag. If he is a legal Danish Resident - then the boat must be Danish-flagged. Perhaps the Portuguese law is similar.

In this situation it is silly beyond belief to attempt to assert your "rights". If you really believe your situation comes under the law of Comity then you should get a lawyer and take it to court (like in New Zealand).

The best advice you've gotten here is to suck it up - go down to the police station and tell them you were having a bad hair day and pay up.
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Old 22-10-2015, 01:58   #70
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
The law the OP contiues to refer to is called the Law of Comity and is an international law which notes that ships plying the high seas simply cannot be expected to comply (or know about) all the regulations countries around the world have for ships registered (flagged) in their countries.
It's actually not a law, as there is no such thing as international law. Comity is basically just international courtesy. And this is where the OP in my opinion went wrong. Courtesy works best when it is applied from both sides...

Another thing to be aware of is that many countries do have laws against abusing the law for other purposes that it is intended.
Portuguese law makers certainly never intented for Portugese nationals to get aroundl ocal restrictions by flagging their yacht under some flag of convenience.
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Old 22-10-2015, 02:27   #71
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Whilst regulation in Europe on license and required equipment varies quite a bit, in most countries three key things matter:

1) Country of residence of the operator in past 6 months of the year
2) Flag state of the boat
3) Does the boat and it's use fall in to category of "pleasure craft" in "non-commercial use". No paying passengers can be on board. Max 12 persons may be on board, lenght of vessel needs to be under 24 meters (some variations here as well). If any of these is not true, then more stringent regulations kick in in most of Europe.

When a foreign flagged pleasure craft is in non-commercial use, operated by a non-resident of the country, then up until 6 months what counts is the home country regulations. During these 6 months the pleasure craft is seen as a "tourist" boat.

In most EU countries after these 6 months the local regulations kick in.

Belgian flagged boat operated by resident of Belgium can sail in Portugal with whatever operator license (possibly none) Belgium requires for such a vessel, for up until 6 months.

Belgian flagged boat operated by Portuguese resident in Portuguese waters: the operator needs to have operator license as per Portuguese regulations. If the boat has been in Portuguese waters longer than 6 months it needs to be registered and equipped according to Portuguese requirements.

If the OP can prove he was not a permanent resident of Portugal at the time of boarding, he may have had some grounds to object the fine on not having a valid license to operate the boat.

Minimum safety equipment rules are typically more tricky. In practice prudent skippers on international voyages would have functional safety equipment on board anyway, unless use of foreign flag was just to circumvent local regulations..
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Old 22-10-2015, 02:38   #72
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Just like Australians insisting that it is the Brits that have the funny accent...
they do!
both that is.

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
yes, I'm lost. I was reading up on 'Hollands' history today and couldn't find this.
look up "southern netherlands" or "spanish netherlands"
that is around the 17oo's
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Old 22-10-2015, 03:30   #73
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Now pls direct us to EU legal acts that regulate this.

Remember many EU acts are suggestions only and may or may not get approved by the member countries.

Before they get approved, they are not binding in these countries.

And that's about that.

In fewer words: which EU act prohibits such (as descibed by OP) actions, and has this act been approved by Portuguese parliament?

b.
Well, I tried to dig up official info, but couldn't find any. I've heard the claim from multiple sources, some are online with links to official sites that are now down. So can't back this up. Maybe stara's comment clears this up somewhat:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stara

Whilst regulation in Europe on license and required equipment varies quite a bit, in most countries three key things matter:

1) Country of residence of the operator in past 6 months of the year
2) Flag state of the boat
3) Does the boat and it's use fall in to category of "pleasure craft" in "non-commercial use". No paying passengers can be on board. Max 12 persons may be on board, lenght of vessel needs to be under 24 meters (some variations here as well). If any of these is not true, then more stringent regulations kick in in most of Europe.

When a foreign flagged pleasure craft is in non-commercial use, operated by a non-resident of the country, then up until 6 months what counts is the home country regulations. During these 6 months the pleasure craft is seen as a "tourist" boat.

In most EU countries after these 6 months the local regulations kick in.

Belgian flagged boat operated by resident of Belgium can sail in Portugal with whatever operator license (possibly none) Belgium requires for such a vessel, for up until 6 months.

Belgian flagged boat operated by Portuguese resident in Portuguese waters: the operator needs to have operator license as per Portuguese regulations. If the boat has been in Portuguese waters longer than 6 months it needs to be registered and equipped according to Portuguese requirements.

If the OP can prove he was not a permanent resident of Portugal at the time of boarding, he may have had some grounds to object the fine on not having a valid license to operate the boat.

Minimum safety equipment rules are typically more tricky. In practice prudent skippers on international voyages would have functional safety equipment on board anyway, unless use of foreign flag was just to circumvent local regulations..
Since I plan to possibly move the boat to Portugal next year, I'm very interested in the topic and would myself appreciate a definitive answer, preferably from some official source. Don't have a license, since one is not required here. If necessary I will go for the ICC.

From a pragmatic point of view, as has been pointed out in this thread also I think a courteous and low key approach with officials will help, even if one is not able to fulfill all local requirements.
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Old 22-10-2015, 03:38   #74
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
The law the OP contiues to refer to is called the Law of Comity and is an international law which notes that ships plying the high seas simply cannot be expected to comply (or know about) all the regulations countries around the world have for ships registered (flagged) in their countries.
I don't think this is an issue with UCNLOS/comity but that the regulations the OP and me and some others are referring to go back to the free movement of people and goods within the EU. Then again, couldn't find anything "official" on the subject so far.
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Old 22-10-2015, 07:33   #75
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

I think it's very simple. Clearly it was best just to show that the equipment requested, but the basic rule is that your nationality is Portuguese, and you have to respct the Portuguese rule. all you can do now is to run awy to Belgiom
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