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Old 21-10-2015, 12:46   #46
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

While in a Portuguese port, their authorities can make various claims. Do not piss them off but rather play along and if you do not have any paper they want, simply say you have it in a file at home.

You win nothing when they get (self-censored)-off. You are in their country and so they are on the top.

Whatever flag your boat is under, local rules WILL apply to various extent. E.g. if you have a radio onboard, you may be required to produce a VHF certificate AND radio station certificate EVEN if they are not required in Belgium.

BTW Portuguese authorities know by now that foreign boats under Belgian flag are just convenience flagged and so they will act on this knowledge. And unless you are a big fish Cayman Flag with an army of layers then they have many ways to soften you.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but these are facts of life. Portuguese authorities are far from the nicest people on planet earth (I mean on the Portuguese continent, they are actually very kind and professional in the Azores). Huge smile and communicating profusely in a language they cannot decipher ususaly dissolves minor doubts.

Avoid this particular port in the future, unless the officer looks like 65+. In Portugal they are all funcionarios and keep their jobs ad infinitum.

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Old 21-10-2015, 13:04   #47
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Actually the official languages in Belgium are Dutch, French and German. Flemish is just a dialect. One of many...
Well my Belgian friends are pretty clear that they speak Flemish not Dutch. According to them Dutch is just a dialect of Flemish.

My Dutch friends on the other hand, have a slightly different point of view.
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Old 21-10-2015, 13:15   #48
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Sandibar View Post

In the EU (everywhere?) the local authorities cannot demand you have qualifications (and possibly equipment) that are not required by your home country rules for the vessel in question.
Now pls direct us to EU legal acts that regulate this.

Remember many EU acts are suggestions only and may or may not get approved by the member countries.

Before they get approved, they are not binding in these countries.

And that's about that.

In fewer words: which EU act prohibits such (as descibed by OP) actions, and has this act been approved by Portuguese parliament?

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Old 21-10-2015, 14:24   #49
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Ted and Relinda View Post
Well having spent
40 yrs in Law Enforcement here in the States, I just waited for someone to say "You can't do that" oops on thier part. Also, although I have no personal experience there, you would be stuck in New Zealand for a long time if you didn't meet all thier exit requirements for equipment no matter what your country required. That's a well documented fact..
Ted.
Actually, Ted, that WAS a well documented fact for a few years starting after the "Queen's Birthday" storm of 1994, where several boats and lives were lost. The Kiwis tried to enforce their own safety regulations on visiting yachts, requiring them to meet Cat 1 standards before being granted outward clearance. This was challenged in time, and eventually overturned, the reason being that NZ had agreed to UN international rules which stated specifically that vessels were to be judged against the regulations of their flag state. The case went all the way to their Supreme Court, fought all the way by the government, but in the end the American yottie who did all the heavy lifting won out and the rule (the infamous "Section 21") was rescinded. To this day, Kiwi registered yachts must meet the Cat 1 requirements to go offshore.

Jim

PS During the time this rule was enforced, many cruising yachts, ours included, declined to visit or return to NZ, being unwilling to submit to this ruling. The marine support industry was badly impacted by this informal boycott, and were loudly on the side of the protesters.
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Old 21-10-2015, 15:44   #50
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by tbodine88 View Post
my policy when dealing with cops anywhere in any guise is follow all instructions at the time then take it up with higher authorities or a lawyer when I have time and if I feel so inclined.

so far I haven't felt inclined.

As an ex cop, that's exactly what we want to see too. Never had a problem with people who want to do that.

I've always said that 9 out of 10 people who got car related tickets from me talked them selves into a ticket.
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Old 21-10-2015, 15:54   #51
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Breezer View Post
My mistake with the Title of the thread...

My fishing kayak is registered under Dutch Flag and my boat is registered under the Belgium Flag.. also I mentioned on the reply right after the initial post I haven't been able to sleep right since Friday. Since Friday I've only been able to sleep barely 9hours and at almost 3am last night I apologize for that confusion.

First off I have to say that something here is lost in translation!
Just to be clear, I did not and have not ever offended nor been condescending to a police officer!
My communication with the officer was professional, polite and educated.

The reason I registered my boat under the Belgium Flag was because I needed to buy a new engine for the bought and I ended up buying a Yamaha F225 4-stroke engine (225HP = ~167.8kW) at a very good price but only after the purchase did I notice that on the boat there is a limitation to the kW it can be used which is 165kW and therefore the local Capitania did not allow me to use the engine and on Belgium that limitation I was told is non existing. (but that wasn't even on the ticket notice because they can't use that allegation)

Now..According to the PAVILLON BELGE: Le site belge pour l'immatriculation de bateaux sous pavillon belge where I have my boat registered at, they say, and I quote:

and in the FAQ:

This last part I had confirmed with the Belgium department where I registered the boat at that it applies to all EU member states.
Because if it was not so, I would not register it there.

To the agent I didn't show him the safety equipment because I was uncertain if the expiration dates on the flares were due as well as the fire extinguisher.
Therefore, if I did show them and they were past expiration, then I might have gotten into worse problems.

Also, the agent never asked for the life vests, safety buoy and on the ticket notice he said I did not have them.
Because those I would not have any problems showing him.


Before anyone finds it that not having the flares or that they are past the due date is reckless/a safety risk, they have been in a watertight container since the day they were purchased and still in their plastic wrapping..
Also, please notice that this is a very small island 98square kilometers that has cellphone coverage all over the island up to about 20nautical miles from shore, I never go offshore more than 2nm, I don't go out if there even if the weather is somewhat good but the forecast says otherwise.
I'm sorry Breezer, but whilst I accept that a lot of context can be lost in translation, so I won't hold that against you, but you seem to be digging yourself a bigger hole. Not showing him safety equipment because it was expired seriously

I'm honestly starting to think you need to fall on your sword and just try to get out of this as cheaply as you can.
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Old 21-10-2015, 16:00   #52
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Cottontop View Post
I understood the OP to be saying that there is some sort of EU rule that supports him, an attempt to make boating across the EU easier. Whether there is such a rule, and whether it applies as broadly as the OP thinks, I have no idea.

He lost my sympathy when he allowed his flares "might" be out-of-date. I would not expect the USCG to accept an argument that flares are not needed if the boat is in cell phone range.

The boat is in my name but the "real owner" is my father whom paid for everything including the boat and he is the one who deals with all those legal matters.

We were informed by the Belgium registry that those were the laws even while navigating other EU member states.

And just to add, all the flares and the extinguisher are all valid and not expired.


And for the other mate here that said he was a police officer, have you ever stopped a vehicle under any other country flag embassy? No? Why not? What is the law? Isn't that vehicle protected by the country flag it is under and isn't it considered sovereign territory to that country?!
Come on, tell us it ain't so!


What I am asking here is if anyone has the exact Belgium laws and articles stating/supporting what the Pav.Belge had told us was the law that we had to abide for while flying the Belgium flag was the Belgium law and that the local Policia Maritima do not have any authority to contradict those laws.
So yes, I abide by the laws I was told I should abide for.
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Old 21-10-2015, 16:15   #53
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Breezer View Post
The boat is in my name but the "real owner" is my father whom paid for everything including the boat and he is the one who deals with all those legal matters.

We were informed by the Belgium registry that those were the laws even while navigating other EU member states.

And just to add, all the flares and the extinguisher are all valid and not expired.


And for the other mate here that said he was a police officer, have you ever stopped a vehicle under any other country flag embassy? No? Why not? What is the law? Isn't that vehicle protected by the country flag it is under and isn't it considered sovereign territory to that country?!
Come on, tell us it ain't so!


What I am asking here is if anyone has the exact Belgium laws and articles stating/supporting what the Pav.Belge had told us was the law that we had to abide for while flying the Belgium flag was the Belgium law and that the local Policia Maritima do not have any authority to contradict those laws.
So yes, I abide by the laws I was told I should abide for.
I'm an 'ex' police officer Cars are different as is diplomatic immunity which is what you are alluding to. Your not suggesting you have 'diplomatic immunity' are you?

And yes, I could pull up diplomotic cars, they have to abide by the same laws as everyone else in this country. However, after I breath tested the chap, I was not able to then charge him, I had to proceed by way of report and higher up the chain they would have informed the embassy staff and that's as far as it went. It's not like on television where some crook yells out 'diplomatic immunity'. You can still arrest people and carry out your normal duties. But it's up to the powers to be how far they take it.

But, cars are NOT, NEVER as you put it 'soverign territory' of another nation. NO.
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Old 21-10-2015, 16:33   #54
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Now pls direct us to EU legal acts that regulate this.

Remember many EU acts are suggestions only and may or may not get approved by the member countries.

Before they get approved, they are not binding in these countries.

And that's about that.

In fewer words: which EU act prohibits such (as descibed by OP) actions, and has this act been approved by Portuguese parliament?

b.
Hi B.

Not an EU regulation but my understanding (for what that's worth) has always been that by international agreement (What agreement is that? Don't know, would have to research that.) the regulations of the flag country of a vessel apply to the vessel. Jim points out the well known case of New Zealand where they tried to force visiting yachts to comply with New Zealand cat 1 safety requirements. Visiting yachties protested and it went to the New Zealand supreme court where the requirement was found to be against international law. Here's an excerpt from an article on that case.

Sir Kenneth Keith, giving the judgment of the Court of Appeal, said in legal terms the objection was based on the principle of the freedom of the high seas. That freedom, including the freedom of navigation, is one of the best-established principles of international law. An essential feature of the freedom is that the flag state of the ship has exclusive jurisdiction over the ship when it is on the high seas. The court decided that the intention and effect of the director's actions (although the inspection was a pre-departure condition in port) was to seek to impose his requirements on foreign yachts on the high seas, which was a breach of international law. The Court implied that the result may have been different if there had been any international standards for pleasure craft that the director had then applied, but pleasure craft not engaged in trade have always been excluded from the international standards conventions.

To me, this and other cases would indicate that unless there are mitigating factors, the laws of the flag state of the vessel would apply. This doesn't necessarily mean that the OP, who is Portuguese with a boat in Portugal that is registered in Belgium falls into this category.
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Old 21-10-2015, 16:57   #55
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Yes, that's what I said, you said you were a police officer...

and could you pull up to a diplomatic vehicle without him had committed any violation would you be able to simply stop him? I do not know

You are however still saying that you could not charge the gent because you didn't have the authority to do so (by authority I mean the "right") and it had to be the country's own embassy to deal with the issue.
Which takes me back to my issue here, for flying under the Belgium flag as we were told we would be abiding by Belgium laws.


Still, All I need is to know what laws and articles say that pleasure crafts running under the Belgium flag are subject to Belgium laws.

Or, what laws actually revoke those same Belgium flag flying pleasure crafts laws if there are any.

It's the same as if you were told by government authority what you can or can not do and you were issued a ticket for something you were told you could do.. which is what is happening with my case
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Old 21-10-2015, 17:15   #56
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Hi,

Ill keep it simple and in English instead of our native language.


If, in Belgium a citizen was not obliged to have a drivers licence to drive a car, he could do it through hes whole life inside its borders without having any issues. However if he drove hes Belgium car to Portugal he would get a fine in France, Spain and in Portugal, as in these countries require you to have a legal permit to drive. He would not be alowed to drive.

Spain allows you to carry an air pressure gun/airsoft gun, and you as a Portuguese citizen can go cross the border and buy it. If you get caught when you come back in to your country youll get arrested because in your country you cant.

When you try to "bend the rules" sometimes you get caught. And they know you are bending the rules. You are not the only Portuguese boater/sailer on a Belgium flaged vessel....

Go talk to them, and ask them what is the best goodwill way to solve your situation. Play dumb, be humble, be polite because you can not say you are a foreigner in ignorance of the Portuguese laws/rules.

Good luck

A4
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Old 21-10-2015, 18:00   #57
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Breezer View Post
...
and could you pull up to a diplomatic vehicle without him had committed any violation would you be able to simply stop him? I do not know...
I don't think your car/boat analogy is quite accurate but lets go with it for a second anyway.

In the US, a car cannot be stopped unless the officer has reasonable suspicion that a violation of law had occurred. Reasonable suspicion is a lower standard than probable cause. Example. If an officer sees a car being driven in a certain manner, the officer could suspect that the driver was drunk. At that point, the officer could stop the vehicle to see if the driver was drunk even though the officer does not have evidence of a violation. Reasonable suspicion does not allow for an arrest or citation, but it allows an officer to make a stop. Probable cause is when an officer either see a violation occur, say a car running a stop sign, or going back to our suspected drunk driver, if the officer develops enough evidence during the stop that the drive was intoxicated, then the officer can make an arrest.

There are also traffic check points that require specific procedures to be followed, in certain circumstances, that allow for cars to be stopped without reasonable suspicion. A cars license plate would NOT prevent the car from being stopped, in fact, the officer would be in error if they did not stop the car. Diplomatic immunity only applies in some circumstances and certainly not always.

Boats are looked at differently under the law in the US. You can go read the long, never ending USCG boarding thread as an example.

Later,
Dan
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Old 21-10-2015, 18:05   #58
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Breezer View Post
Yes, that's what I said, you said you were a police officer...

and could you pull up to a diplomatic vehicle without him had committed any violation would you be able to simply stop him? I do not know

You are however still saying that you could not charge the gent because you didn't have the authority to do so (by authority I mean the "right") and it had to be the country's own embassy to deal with the issue.
Which takes me back to my issue here, for flying under the Belgium flag as we were told we would be abiding by Belgium laws.


Still, All I need is to know what laws and articles say that pleasure crafts running under the Belgium flag are subject to Belgium laws.

Or, what laws actually revoke those same Belgium flag flying pleasure crafts laws if there are any.

It's the same as if you were told by government authority what you can or can not do and you were issued a ticket for something you were told you could do.. which is what is happening with my case
Breezer, as I said in my origional reply, I'm an EX COP, that is I was once a police officer, but not now! IN Australia we can YES pull up ANY car or boat without them having done anything YES. It's called 'random' over here. and NO, I did not say I didn't have the 'right' to charge him. But in any case YOU are not claiming diplomatic immunity, so what happens with diplomats is really something entirely different and in addition to that, your not in Austalia.
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Old 21-10-2015, 18:15   #59
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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In the US, a car cannot be stopped unless the officer has reasonable suspicion that a violation of law had occurred.
In many (most?) countries random road blocks and vehicle/licence/breath tests are the norm.
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Old 21-10-2015, 18:21   #60
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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In many (most?) countries random road blocks and vehicle/licence/breath tests are the norm.
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