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Old 21-10-2015, 03:03   #16
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by pikv View Post
Few of you mixing up Holland and Belgium. Insulting both nationalities😀
Including the original poster....
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Old 21-10-2015, 03:05   #17
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

So funny, in the US they dont have the "right" to search your home (unless it's a boat) or vehicle without "probable cause" reminding the officers of this and saying no gives them probable cause. In the words of my wife" Suck it up Buttercup it will only hurt once"
The next time youll know better

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Old 21-10-2015, 03:48   #18
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Anyway, there is sort of a gray area... I'm not a lawyer, but for what I have read, there was recently a sentence by an European Court stating that a Belgium registered vessel sailing in Spanish territorial waters is not required to fulfill Spanish regulations in matters of safety, etc. But Spanish authorities have the right to demand from the captain a "valid license", which is not a very clear term, as some countries don't require anything at all.

To complicate matters further, each maritime region in Spain has somewhat different criteria, and the Coast Guard seem not to be aware of the latest juridical status, so in plain words, it's a mess... I guess in Portugal must be something like this.
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Old 21-10-2015, 03:57   #19
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

I agree you need to try to resolve this without further argument. You are not in a position of strength.

I have found the port captains to be very helpful in every regard. I would talk to your local port captain and see if he can help smooth things over.

But to resolve this, I would be very agreeable with the authorities.

By the way, we are in Angra, Terceira. Where did this event occur?

Cheers!

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Old 21-10-2015, 05:52   #20
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikv View Post
Few of you mixing up Holland and Belgium. Insulting both nationalities😀


Given that Holland and Belgium once meant the same thing, and that the messy divorce Imposed on this nation wasn't really wanted by anyone, this can be understood...



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Old 21-10-2015, 06:03   #21
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Given that Holland and Belgium once meant the same thing, and that the messy divorce Imposed on this nation wasn't really wanted by anyone, this can be understood...
Hmm that is an creative understanding of history....
I'm from Holland and I must have been asleep during history class when they told us when that happened.

Even so A Dutch Flag and a Belgium Flag are really different. You can mistake ours with the one from France and Luxembourg, but the Belgiums share the colors with the German one, not the Dutch one.
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Old 21-10-2015, 07:34   #22
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

My mistake with the Title of the thread...

My fishing kayak is registered under Dutch Flag and my boat is registered under the Belgium Flag.. also I mentioned on the reply right after the initial post I haven't been able to sleep right since Friday. Since Friday I've only been able to sleep barely 9hours and at almost 3am last night I apologize for that confusion.

First off I have to say that something here is lost in translation!
Just to be clear, I did not and have not ever offended nor been condescending to a police officer!
My communication with the officer was professional, polite and educated.

The reason I registered my boat under the Belgium Flag was because I needed to buy a new engine for the bought and I ended up buying a Yamaha F225 4-stroke engine (225HP = ~167.8kW) at a very good price but only after the purchase did I notice that on the boat there is a limitation to the kW it can be used which is 165kW and therefore the local Capitania did not allow me to use the engine and on Belgium that limitation I was told is non existing. (but that wasn't even on the ticket notice because they can't use that allegation)

Now..According to the PAVILLON BELGE: Le site belge pour l'immatriculation de bateaux sous pavillon belge where I have my boat registered at, they say, and I quote:

"L’immatriculation en Belgique s’adresse à tous les ressortissants de l’Union Européenne, sans obligation de domicile en Belgique. A bord du bateau, c'est la législation du pays du pavillon qui est applicable. En d'autres termes, sous pavillon belge, c'est la législation belge qui s'applique."

below that they say:
"vous naviguez où vous voulez sans notion de catégorie, il n'y a pas de limite de distance de navigation (ou zones de navigation).
vous pouvez adapter votre matériel de sécurité, sans obligation ni contrainte, le radeau de survie n'est pas obligatoire,
En mer, pas besoin de brevet ou permis de navigation (côtier, hauturier,...) "

and in the FAQ:

"Si je prend le pavillon Belge, suis-je en contradiction avec la législation française?

NON, en choisissant le pavillon Belge, votre bateau dépend de la règlementation belge.
Si vous respectez cette réglementation, vous n’aurez aucun problème avec les autorités."

This last part I had confirmed with the Belgium department where I registered the boat at that it applies to all EU member states.
Because if it was not so, I would not register it there.

To the agent I didn't show him the safety equipment because I was uncertain if the expiration dates on the flares were due as well as the fire extinguisher.
Therefore, if I did show them and they were past expiration, then I might have gotten into worse problems.

Also, the agent never asked for the life vests, safety buoy and on the ticket notice he said I did not have them.
Because those I would not have any problems showing him.


Before anyone finds it that not having the flares or that they are past the due date is reckless/a safety risk, they have been in a watertight container since the day they were purchased and still in their plastic wrapping..
Also, please notice that this is a very small island 98square kilometers that has cellphone coverage all over the island up to about 20nautical miles from shore, I never go offshore more than 2nm, I don't go out if there even if the weather is somewhat good but the forecast says otherwise.

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Old 21-10-2015, 08:13   #23
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by aluijten View Post
Hmm that is an creative understanding of history....
I'm from Holland and I must have been asleep during history class when they told us when that happened.
And I grew up in Belgium, and then moved to the Netherlands, allowing me to experience first hand how biassed history teaching in both countries is...
Just google "Novum Belgium" if you have time :-)
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Old 21-10-2015, 08:21   #24
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by Breezer View Post
Now..According to the PAVILLON BELGE: Le site belge pour l'immatriculation de bateaux sous pavillon belge where I have my boat registered at, they say, and I quote:

"L’immatriculation en Belgique s’adresse à tous les ressortissants de l’Union Européenne, sans obligation de domicile en Belgique. A bord du bateau, c'est la législation du pays du pavillon qui est applicable. En d'autres termes, sous pavillon belge, c'est la législation belge qui s'applique."
From my understanding this is not correct.

A registration gives a boat a nationality. But it does not turn it in to some piece of foreign territory. When you are abroad the laws of the country you are in apply.
As I understand it visiting yachts are allowed to a certain extent to substitute compliance with local laws with compliance with laws from their home country, but this is a courtesy, not a right. And yours is not a visiting yacht...

Compare it with driving: You can drive a german registered car on Portugese roads, but when you are pulled over for speeding you can't claim that you are allowed to do so because there are no speed limits on the autobahn...
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Old 21-10-2015, 08:43   #25
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Given that Holland and Belgium once meant the same thing, and that the messy divorce Imposed on this nation wasn't really wanted by anyone, this can be understood...
You mean Belgium and Holland aren't the same? But they both speak Flemish...... wait maybe they both speak Dutch. Except in Walloonia where they almost speak French.
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Old 21-10-2015, 08:43   #26
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Hi,
I can report about the situation in Italy, where there are many Belgian flagged boats owned by Italians.
An Italian skipper sailing a Belgian flagged boat in Italian waters must have a proper Italian captain license. Period. If you don't have it, you'll be in big troubles and be fined.
However, the Italian CG is generally accepting that a Belgian boat complies only with the Belgian safety regulations and requirements but, because the Italian CG does not know which they are, it is better to be well prepared and show them which they are and that you comply with them.

I agree with KVB
Quote:
visiting yachts are allowed to a certain extent to substitute compliance with local laws with compliance with laws from their home country, but this is a courtesy, not a right.
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Old 21-10-2015, 09:08   #27
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

I know of a case where a British yacht in Greece did not want to pay 'tourist tax', as laid out in the Greek law. Under EU regulations this is illegal.
This boat has been on a chain for the last two years awaiting trial.
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Old 21-10-2015, 09:17   #28
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

Hi Breezer,

Sorry for your problems.

First suggestion, if this ticket is potentially very expensive or has some other serious penalty then your best course is to consult a professional, preferably a lawyer.

That being said, my non professional understanding is that yes, technically a boat is only required to comply with the laws of the country where it is registered. In the real world, I read many examples of boats and owners that run into problems when visiting other countries that have different regulations. Once you are in another country, regardless of international regulations, you are in their control and will have to comply with their rules unless you want to get into a dispute with the local authorities, a dispute you will probably lose and cost you money.

In your case, the situation is complicated by the fact that you are Portuguese, in Portugal with a Belgium registered boat. Does not matter if some engine restriction on your boat made you do this. The reason means nothing to the Portuguese authorities, they do not care what reason.

At this point you can try to fight it legally and probably pay a lot of money or go back to the local authorities, apologize and try to fix the situation.

Good luck.
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Old 21-10-2015, 09:18   #29
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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You mean Belgium and Holland aren't the same? But they both speak Flemish...... wait maybe they both speak Dutch. Except in Walloonia where they almost speak French.
Tss tss tss: In Belgium Flemish, Dutch in the Netherlands (NOT Holland, which is a part of the Netherlands...!)
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Old 21-10-2015, 09:21   #30
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Re: Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

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Originally Posted by pabraam View Post
Tss tss tss: In Belgium Flemish, Dutch in the Netherlands (NOT Holland, which is a part of the Netherlands...!)
Unless of course you happen to be in Twente - where the locals speak Twens, a bastardized plat Deutsch/Dutch that only another local can understand
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