Boat with Dutch Flag I got a ticket notice in Portugal

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Breezer

Hello guys!

I want to clear something up, I tried before but I don't think I was understood.
I am not against any police officer or law enforcement. In fact, I have family that are officers and I have several other agents of whom we both consider eachother as family just as my brother is family to me.
However, I do not like to be pushed around even if it is the case of an officer is overstepping his "jurisdiction" which unfortunately it does happen.

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Quoting directly from the Belgium Mobilit website - it is the official Belgium law "regulator" (that is what I was told by the Belgium embassy here in Portugal, to get the laws on that website)
Naviguer à l'étranger | SPF Mobilité
"Navigation en mer Les bateaux qui naviguent en mer à l’étranger, pour lesquels une lettre de pavillon est exigée, et qui sont en possession d’une lettre de pavillon belge, sont considérés comme des bateaux auxquels la réglementation belge est d’application. Dans le présent cas par exemple, cela signifie qu'aucun brevet de conduite n’est exigé, compte tenu qu’il n’est pas obligatoire en Belgique. A noter toutefois que si vous louez un bateau dans un pays où un brevet de conduite est exigé, en tant que belge, cette réglementation vous est également applicable."


Basically what it says is: The boats which navigate sea abroad, which are obligated to have a "Lettre de Pavillon", and of which are in possession of "Lettre de Pavillon Belge", are considered as being boats over which the Belgium rules are to be applied. In this case for example, it means that when no driving permit is demanded because it is not demanded in Belgium you are not demanded to have one.


The last phrase is for when someone Rents a boat abroad, which in this case, if that country demands a driving permit, you are obligated to have one.


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I have been reading a lot of EU laws these past few days and it is taking a looooot of hours to sort all the information we've been able to gather..



The most important so far is the The Schengen Agreement.
Please have a read here on wikipedia link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

Of which Belgium and Portugal are both part of the sum.

Also, that so called "law of the six months in a period of 365days continuosly" some of you have mentioned, falls, on what you also call, "grey areas" because if you are an EU citizen and have a boat under an EU member-state flag and are sailing to another EU member-state, According to the EU laws, you are not obligated to tell anyone, unless they ask you, that you are leaving that country and going to another EU member-state country. It
There are exceptions though, mostly regarding comercial stuff, and Non-EU citizens, but my situation is not one of them.

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I did not say the boats under Belgium flags could not be inspected.
I said that the local Policia Maritima (the one that tried to inspect me), that specific authority does not have the right to "inspect" beyond some documents according to Belgium laws unless they have somesort of elected person by Belgium authorities in order to be able to board and do a full inspection which they did not have. (I'm missing the correct expression on the "somesort of elected person by Belgium authorities" but that's basically what it says..)
I have this above information saved here somewhere but can't find it right now and I am too tired...

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As for the the security equipment demanded by Belgium laws here you can read:
http://pavillonbelge.be/onewebmedia/...ite-a-bord.pdf

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Some of you have also mentioned something about the ICC permit but if you are not a member(citizen or resident) of a country that has signed that ICC agreement you can not obtain an ICC.
And so you know, Portugal is one of the few countries in the EU that don't consider the ICC as a "formal" driving permit but MIGHT accept it.

What is the ICC? | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA

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I did not directly quote any of you guys that replied because it would make this reply of mine basically unreadable but I did try to answer as many doubts as possible..

I'm still awaiting a response to the letter the lawyer gave us to send to the Policia Maritima countering their allegations so I don't have any info on that yet..

Stay safe out there!
Vando

I have already explained that. Under the Portuguese law:

"A foreign boat is one that is not Portuguese or EC flagged. A foreign navigator is one that does not have residence in Portugal. "


So in what regards the boat you are right in what regards to be legal to a Portuguese to own a boat with another European flag but you are not a foreign navigator because you reside in Portugal so the Portuguese licence laws applies to you. It is the same in Spain that have a similar legislation.

Regarding safety items needed to navigate on the waters of another country you have to comply with what they demand on their legislation if they make a point regarding that. Normally they don't and accept the equipment from the other EC country but it is understable that if that country demands nothing that they demand what is needed in Portugal even more having the boat a permanent mooring in Portugal.

Anyway a boat forum is not the place to get the right answers to your questions. Ask to the Port captain and if you are not convinced have a lawyer. Anyway if you don't want to have your boat arrested, first pay the fines and then press a lawsuit that can be a national or an EC one.

[Dougtiff]

First off this scenario is a bit confusing, as you say the vessel is DUTCH flagged, then state Belgium, different country's, so I believe you come under the laws of the flagged country of the boat, I remember a few year's ago New Zealand tried to enforce their laws on cruising yacht's registered in other country's and in the end had to back off.

[Breezer]

Hi Dougtiff. yeah, that did happen and the ruling was that the laws to be applied were the ones of flag on the boat... I've corrected that Dutch/Belgium error on a subsequent post.. it was my mistake, it was the middle of the night, no sleep and the fact that the boat is under Belgium flag but my fishing kayak is under Dutch flag..

(yes, here in the Portugal one is forced to register a kayak as a boat to be able to go outside of the seaports because one can't fish within it's area)
For example, in Brazil one only needs a fishing license to fish out of a kayak and a pfd - personal flotation device(any type you wish).


I was given some documents from that court of appeals ruling that I've been reading and indeed those facts line up...Flag laws apply to the boat is is flying under.

I'm still waiting for a formal response to the reply I sent tho...

[jckb]

Oh dear. What a lot of myths are being created on this thread. Both the OP's boat, and the OP, are within the EU and The Schengen zone.

1. The EU is a common customs zone.
2. EU rules dictate how the boat is treated when it travels between EU countries. The regulations cover "Means of Transport" (MoT) used for leisure purposes. MoT are airplanes, boats, cars. And horse and cart combinations.
3. As applied in Portugal, an MoT from another EU country must be "imported" if it is to stay longer than 180 days in Portugal, irrespective of flag.
4. "Import" implies that the boat and its operation must meet all Portuguese regulations - including licences to operate.
5. If import is temporary, re-registration is not required.

Movements of People are governed by Schengen and tax regulations.

1. The relevant rule is that any person staying in an EU country more than 182 days in 365 may be deemed to be a tax resident of that country.
2. He may also be a tax resident if he receives income from sources in that country.
3. Tax residents may be obliged to import MoT as soon as it is clear that those MoT are likely to stay longer than 180 days.
4. Those MoT will also be liable to local taxation as "wealth" assets - if a country has a wealth tax.

Most of this is recorded, with references to the underlying legislation, in Time Abroad | JimB Sail


Different regulations apply to non-EU boats and people not resident in the EU. Mis-application of these rules in Greece were recently challenged by the British Cruising Association which brought a successful legal action against Greece. The link outlines current Greek regulations as amended.


If you're going boating in foreign waters, check the rules before you go. Don't rely on hearsay.


JimB

[Polux]

Originally Posted by jckb

Oh dear. What a lot of myths are being created on this thread. Both the OP's boat, and the OP, are within the EU and The Schengen zone.

1. The EU is a common customs zone.
2. EU rules dictate how the boat is treated when it travels between EU countries. The regulations cover "Means of Transport" (MoT) used for leisure purposes. MoT are airplanes, boats, cars. And horse and cart combinations.
3. As applied in Portugal, an MoT from another EU country must be "imported" if it is to stay longer than 180 days in Portugal, irrespective of flag.
4. "Import" implies that the boat and its operation must meet all Portuguese regulations - including licences to operate.
5. If import is temporary, re-registration is not required.

Movements of People are governed by Schengen and tax regulations.

1. The relevant rule is that any person staying in an EU country more than 182 days in 365 may be deemed to be a tax resident of that country.
2. He may also be a tax resident if he receives income from sources in that country.
3. Tax residents may be obliged to import MoT as soon as it is clear that those MoT are likely to stay longer than 180 days.
4. Those MoT will also be liable to local taxation as "wealth" assets - if a country has a wealth tax.

Most of this is recorded, with references to the underlying legislation, in Time Abroad | JimB Sail


Different regulations apply to non-EU boats and people not resident in the EU. Mis-application of these rules in Greece were recently challenged by the British Cruising Association which brought a successful legal action against Greece. The link outlines current Greek regulations as amended.


If you're going boating in foreign waters, check the rules before you go. Don't rely on hearsay.


JimB

That is true for cars, because cars pay different taxes in different EC countries, but not for boats.

You don't need to import a boat if you live in a country and have a boat flagged on another EU country. Lots of boats in EU countries with flags from other EU countries. Most when they buy an used boat on another EC country don't have the trouble to flag it on their own country.

What you say imply that when a EU citizen buys a used boat outside its country would have to import it to his own country. That is not true, not even in what regards new boats that can be bought in any EU country and brought to another country without any need to import them (I have done that).

I have posted the Portuguese law about that. it simply states that a foreigner boat in Portugal is one from out of EU.

The same does not apply however to sailors and a sailor living in Portugal for extended periods or a Portuguese with a boat flagged in another EC country has to comply with the Portuguese law in what refers needed boat licenses to sail.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Polux

That is true for cars, because cars pay different taxes in different EC countries, but not for boats.

You don't need to import a boat if you live in a country and have a boat flagged on another EU country. Lots of boats in EU countries with flags from other EU countries. Most when they buy an used boat on another EC country don't have the trouble to flag it on their own country.

I have posted the Portuguese law about that. it simply states that a foreigner boat in Portugal is one from out of EU.

The same does not apply however to sailors and a sailor living in Portugal for extended periods or a Portuguese with a boat flagged in another EC country has to comply with the Portuguese law in what refers needed boat licenses to sail.

I don't know the portuguese law, but in Denmark no danish resident (be they citizen or not) is allowed to own a boat that is registered in another country. It must be registered in Denmark

[Polux]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I don't know the portuguese law, but in Denmark no danish resident (be they citizen or not) is allowed to own a boat that is registered in another country. It must be registered in Denmark

Then the law varies according to different countries, but we are talking about Portugal, not Denmark. In Italy is identical to Portugal as well as France or Italy. Lots of boats in France with Belgium flag.

But you surely don't need to import an used boat to Denmark if you have bought it in another EU country?

[Sandibar]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I don't know the portuguese law, but in Denmark no danish resident (be they citizen or not) is allowed to own a boat that is registered in another country. It must be registered in Denmark

I assume you mean a Danish resident may not keep a foreign registered boat in Denmark. Surely, owning a boat abroad is not forbidden in general?

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Sandibar

I assume you mean a Danish resident may not keep a foreign registered boat in Denmark. Surely, owning a boat abroad is not forbidden in general?

It's a tax thing. If you are a Danish resident you must register your boat in Denmark and fly the Danish flag. You are not allowed to own a boat flying a foreign flag (due to taxes). Now if you have tons of money and several corporations I guess you can have boat flying the Cayman Islands flag.

Re Pollux

But you surely don't need to import an used boat to Denmark if you have bought it in another EU country?

yes you do. Again due to taxes.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by carstenb

....
yes you do. Again due to taxes.

You mean on Denmark you pay other taxes on boats other than VAT?
If so it makes sense, it is like with cars.
It is a new thing? It seems that some years ago that was not needed, I mean import a used boat from the EU to Denmark.
http://www.fenderen.dk/forum/showthread.php?t=4921
http://www.fenderen.dk/forum/showthread.php?t=4459

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Polux

You mean on Denmark you pay other taxes on boats other than VAT?
If so it makes sense, it is like with cars.
It is a new thing? It seems that some years ago that was not needed, I mean import a used boat from the EU to Denmark.
Import af båd fra Holland - Fenderen.dk
Import fra Tyskland - Fenderen.dk

The tax is an "envy" tax that is 1.34% of the value you insure the boat for. So if you insure the boat for, say 50.000 euro you would 1.34% of that or 620 euros per year in "envy" tax.

Since our tax office doesn't want Danes circumventing the tax by simply reflagging the boat to another country, you are not allowed to do that.

If you only have liability insurance you don't have to pay the tax, but you still have to register the boat.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by Polux

That is true for cars, because cars pay different taxes in different EC countries, but not for boats.

To be more exact, EU directives allow that any EU customs zone country may require visiting MoT to be "imported" (not necessarily re-registered) if they spend more than 180 days in a different country.

You're correct, this is to ensure people don't escape tax by using boats registered elsewhere.

It also means that if boats are not taxed in a country they are visiting, there is no need for a country to require "import". So UK allows visiting EU craft to stay indefinitely without import. So does Greece and Italy.

The flip side of this rule is that if you keep your boat in a country which has a circulation tax, or a wealth tax, neither of these taxes can be levied on your boat until it has been in the "new" country for 180 days. So, according to EU directives, Portugal should not charge its €2 lighthouse tax on boats staying less than 180 days.

You don't need to import a boat if you live in a country and have a boat flagged on another EU country. Lots of boats in EU countries with flags from other EU countries. Most when they buy an used boat on another EC country don't have the trouble to flag it on their own country.

So that's not strictly correct. In some countries within the EU, you do have to import if you boat is going to be there for over 180 days, and in other countries, you don't.

And sometimes, it depends on your tax status of the country you are visiting.

What you say imply that when a EU citizen buys a used boat outside its country would have to import it to his own country. That is not true, not even in what regards new boats that can be bought in any EU country and brought to another country without any need to import them (I have done that).

In some countries, yes. In others, no. So you can't draw conclusions from individual experience. You have to check first!

Portugal and Spain have both levied heavy fines on boats which don't obey their local rules - sometimes incorrectly!

The Cruising Association (which I'm a member of) logs these events and investigates them. We then negotiate with authorities which don't play by the rules when they should, and if necessary, we ask the EU commission to put things right. We've recently had some big successes with the Greek authorities , all documented on the public pages of our web site.

JimB

[jckb]

Originally Posted by carstenb

The tax is an "envy" tax that is 1.34% of the value you insure the boat for. So if you insure the boat for, say 50.000 euro you would 1.34% of that or 620 euros per year in "envy" tax.

I like the way you call this an "envy tax"! Most call it a wealth tax!

Spain, Italy and Greece also levy wealth taxes on boats. Spain and Greece levy the tax on all tax residents of their countries if the boat is kept in the country.

Italy levies the tax on all boats registered in Italy.

Guess why there are very few Italian registered boats in Italy!

JimB

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by jckb

I like the way you call this an "envy tax"! Most call it a wealth tax!



JimB

Call it what you like - but in reality it is an "Envy" tax.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by jckb

...
Portugal and Spain have both levied heavy fines on boats which don't obey their local rules - sometimes incorrectly!
...
JimB

I don't know of any such case in Portugal, unless you are talking about mandatory safety equipment, but that is a completely different matter then being the boat flagged on another EU country (and be finned for that) and that is about that we are talking about.

Can you tell me of what particular cases you are talking about?

Any country can demand that in his own waters the boats to comply with their safety requirements in what regards safety equipment, even if most just chose not to do so.