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Old 04-10-2012, 11:27   #91
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

Need to leave now. Will be back this evening.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:32   #92
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Originally Posted by tropicalescape View Post
Not trying to be hard to get along with...If you have a contract with someone and then you have trouble ,it is a civil matter,no policeman in his right mind would misconstru it as theft...its he said she said, and a civil court is the only recourse...I would like for it to be "theft" if it were my boat,but at the end of the day it is not theft ,you give your boat,car,money freely and it becomes civil...we are at the mercy of people like this when we enter into a contract...
Please, I certainly didn't think you were trying to be hard to get along with and I certainly am not. Just a friendly discussion and exchange of different points of view. Promise if I'm mad or offended I will make it clearly known.

Situation for the OP I'm sure is very distressing, from what we can see sounds complicated and potentially expensive. So two or more heads and ideas may be better than one.

So, on a simple basis of dispute over payment I agree it would be a simple civil matter, but at some point a line is crossed where it would become a criminal matter. Where is that line and has it been crossed? Hard to say at this point. To follow the logic of another reply, if a mafia trucker took your money and then your boat and sold it to a smuggler in the Medellin cartel then it sounds like theft and a criminal matter to me.

Since as far as I can tell, there are no actual lawyers commenting on this thread, then what we have is somewhat educated speculation from a bunch of semi-experienced amateurs.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:39   #93
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Not trying to be hard to get along with...If you have a contract with someone and then you have trouble ,it is a civil matter,no policeman in his right mind would misconstru it as theft...its he said she said, and a civil court is the only recourse...I would like for it to be "theft" if it were my boat,but at the end of the day it is not theft ,you give your boat,car,money freely and it becomes civil...we are at the mercy of people like this when we enter into a contract...
I am not a laywer, but to me, if I give someone, something to move from point A to point B, then he decides to not give it back to me or even let me know were it is, then that is theft. I realize we are only hearing one side of an argument, but if what the OP is true I would conciderate this theft, or extortion at the very least. With that said I would try to follow, other forms of resolution before reporting it to local police.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:52   #94
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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The contract was a simple email stating the cost, 50% now , 50% upon delivery and a delivery date. Pretty dumb, eh!
Obviously I am no lawyer but I see plusses as well as minuses to having so little.

My starting point is that if the trucker had no agreement from you to pay for repairs then he has no basis for a claim against you for those things . Obviously that does not help with the "WTF do I do now?" end of things, but every little helps (and as you can prove you own the boat, he has to prove why he has possession of it / is not giving it back). Whilst I would not want to file a false theft claim, sooner or later someone keeping refusing to deliver your goods must surely become theft.....either that or I am getting into the US trucking business .

I would certainly go and see a lawyer, with some trucking dispute experiance for some advice if not yet for some action. Perhaps also to flesh out what crimes the trucker has (or will have) been committing - that cross State lines thing might also be useful, as seem (to a non-US person) than pretty much everything is more serious when that happens, including simply farting .
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:00   #95
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Depends on how he got the property...
Exactly. One cut and dried example that I know is legally correct (at least in some states) because I have been personally involved (not as the party that owed the bill).

If you take your boat to a yard or your car to a shop and have work done (a contract) then that yard or shop can legally hold your boat or car until you pay the bill. If you take it back without paying then you are breaking the law.

This case, from what we know on the forum, is not so clear.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:18   #96
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

OP, do you have insurance? Contact the adjustor and make a claim. They WILL get to the bottom of it quickly.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:28   #97
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Exactly. One cut and dried example that I know is legally correct (at least in some states) because I have been personally involved (not as the party that owed the bill).

If you take your boat to a yard or your car to a shop and have work done (a contract) then that yard or shop can legally hold your boat or car until you pay the bill. If you take it back without paying then you are breaking the law.

This case, from what we know on the forum, is not so clear.
And if a person holds on to the property of another without legal right it can be theft, demanding money with menece, extortion or what ever. According to the facts as given by the OP no aditional money is payable untill the delivery of the boat. Demanding money and holding property in an undisclosed location is not the same as a mechanic exercising a lien against a car for money that is already due.

Not having any legal training in American law, nor have worked in the judical system there, just looking up ANY legal refrence will give you some idea of the range of activities that can be considered to be a breach of criminal law - for example see 13-1802 - Theft; classification; definitions
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Old 04-10-2012, 13:08   #98
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Originally Posted by CREOLE-BELLE View Post
The contract was a simple email stating the cost, 50% now , 50% upon delivery and a delivery date. Pretty dumb, eh!
That's not a contract. Therein lies the problem but you already knew that. Some lessons are more painful and expensive than others but hopefully other folks can learn from this one. It is enlightening to see so many pseudo- attorneys around; law school must have been a waste of time...
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Old 04-10-2012, 13:08   #99
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

It's interesting, most of the information here is incorrect. You hire a transport company to move a boat and the boat never gets there, you can't report it stolen because why ??? you had a contract?? Does that really make sense to anyone?? Cargo weight is determined by the carrier, not the shipper, that is why Household movers obtain certified weight tickets for shipments. If a weight is in question the carrier obtains weight tickets empty and loaded to determine weight, the shipper is entitled to see the transporter being weighed both empty and loaded. That is the only way to verify weights.
Your boat is stolen and being held for extortion purposes. If it is past the delivery date it is time to report this to the FBI. This is the theft of a interstate shipment, This is exactly an FBI case, it's a federal law that has been broken.
There are a series of problems here, first off, you had no one present representing the boat owner when the boat was loaded. Example the boat gets holed. the marina says the trucker damaged it , the trucker says the marina holed it. the owner gets screwed. Because no one represented the boat owner to sign off on the condition at loading time.
The boat owner needed a copy of the carriers cargo and liability insurance policy before tendering the cargo to the carrier. For this type of move I would want referrals before agreeing to ship. As of now the boat owner doesn't even know if there is any insurance, which actually makes him liable!
You the boat owner are not responsible for the carriers equipment even if the anchor falls off the deck and scratches the trucks paint... the carrier is responsible to safely load and secure the cargo. The trucker is liable for his cargo and the safe operation of his equipment.
There is no way I would allow this carrier to continue with this move once the boat is located. Your dealing with a crook or someone who knows that you have no clue what's going on in this type of a transaction.
Your contract should have included what happens when the delivery is not met. The way it is now, nothing happens because there is no mention of it in the contract. The trucker earlier who says he gets charged $750/ hr if he misses a crane appointment gets charged because it's in haul the agreement entered into before he loaded the load not halfway through his trip.
You are sadly dealing with a broke SOB! When you locate the boat and if you continue with this carrier do not let your boat out of your sight. If his junk is in this bad of shape he will never get past the CA scales, making for more delays and more demands for cash from you!! Good Luck
PS I've been in the trucking business for 35 years what you're experiencing is nothing new really and the ending is always the same it's gonna cost you!
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Old 04-10-2012, 13:09   #100
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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And if a person holds on to the property of another without legal right it can be theft, demanding money with menece, extortion or what ever. According to the facts as given by the OP no aditional money is payable untill the delivery of the boat. Demanding money and holding property in an undisclosed location is not the same as a mechanic exercising a lien against a car for money that is already due.

Not having any legal training in American law, nor have worked in the judical system there, just looking up ANY legal refrence will give you some idea of the range of activities that can be considered to be a breach of criminal law - for example see 13-1802 - Theft; classification; definitions
According to the definitions on the web site you reference from AZ this situation seems to fit definition #2

"A person commits theft if, without lawful authority, the person knowingly: Converts for an unauthorized term or use services or property of another entrusted to the defendant or placed in the defendant's possession for a limited, authorized term or use."
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Old 04-10-2012, 13:10   #101
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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OP, do you have insurance? Contact the adjustor and make a claim. They WILL get to the bottom of it quickly.
Good point... I didn't think of the obvious...good post
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Old 04-10-2012, 14:14   #102
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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OP, do you have insurance? Contact the adjustor and make a claim. They WILL get to the bottom of it quickly.
..and when they see the "contract" they will walk away just as quick...If that is the "contract" you are sadly, at this persons mercy as they can say just about anything they want to, so as to justify his greed or demands, such as : after he made the deal, you talked farther and you agreed to compensate him for any damage to his equitment,to pay his food expensies, and to give him a bonus payment if he was late with your boat! If this is the extent of your agreement he has you in a corner! He will prevail with his demands as the contract is to simple and left to interpitation...words like "anticapated." have no place in a real contract..this guy can say anything he wants to say and it cant be disputed due to your "contract"..wish you the best ...
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Old 04-10-2012, 14:25   #103
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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That's not a contract. Therein lies the problem but you already knew that. Some lessons are more painful and expensive than others but hopefully other folks can learn from this one. It is enlightening to see so many pseudo- attorneys around; law school must have been a waste of time...
I am no lawyer, but I believe that can be considered a contract or at least an agreement. Either way, I believe it could be binding still.

And I also agree that contract or not, at some point the failure to deliver the boat or at least make it accessible to the owner has to eventually become a crime. I find it hard to believe it remains a civil matter forever.
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Old 04-10-2012, 14:26   #104
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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..and when they see the "contract" they will walk away just as quick...If that is the "contract" you are sadly, at this persons mercy as they can say just about anything they want to, so as to justify his greed or demands, such as : after he made the deal, you talked farther and you agreed to compensate him for any damage to his equitment,to pay his food expensies, and to give him a bonus payment if he was late with your boat! If this is the extent of your agreement he has you in a corner! He will prevail with his demands as the contract is to simple and left to interpitation...words like "anticapated." have no place in a real contract..this guy can say anything he wants to say and it cant be disputed due to your "contract"..wish you the best ...
Maybe they can say whatever they want, but then it becomes a he said/he said argument. Anything in writing would hold a lot more weight.
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Old 04-10-2012, 14:54   #105
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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That's not a contract.
Not necessarily correct. No I am not a lawyer but have done enough business and dealt with lawyers, MBAs, etc that I think I can comment on a few relevant issues.

To have a legally binding contract does not require a written document prepared by a lawyer and signed by both parties. A completely verbal agreement between two parties can be a legally binding contract. May be difficult to prove but does not change the legality. In certain specific situations a fax from one party to another, if unanswered by the recipient can be binding on that recipient. This was told to our company by one of the largest law firms in the state of Florida.

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It is enlightening to see so many pseudo- attorneys around; law school must have been a waste of time...
The OP asked for help and forum members, in good faith responded, some with very good, informed information, some maybe not so good. Either way, unless I missed one do not recall any reply claiming to have the full, correct, certified, legal answer so it's up to the OP to decide how to use the information.
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