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Old 25-10-2012, 08:02   #556
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
The law in a lot of Europe is what is called Napoleonic Code as opposed to the US where Common Law is the standard. The biggest difference is under common law you are innocent till proven guilty, under the Napoleonic Code you are guilty till proven innocent.
Sorry, I can't let this go. For the record, this is false, and on several different levels.

First of all, the Code Napoleon is a civil code, and doesn't say a word about guilt or innocence in a criminal matter.

Second, you can't describe the Continental legal system as being based on the "Code Napoleon". It's properly called Civil Law, and it is based on the Roman Law, as was the Code Napoleon, which was influential in continental Europe but did not determine the whole legal system.

Third, not even the Roman Law (much less the law of Napoleonic France) had any presumption of guilt -- the burden of proof was always on the accuser in a criminal case -- Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat -- "it is incumbent upon him who declares, and not on him who denies, to prove" is written out in Justinian's Code, but the principle goes back into time immemorial.

So in every single European country without exception, a person accused in a criminal matter is presumed to be innocent, until it has been proven otherwise. If there is no proof, then the person cannot be convicted. The standard of proof is a different thing -- it may be different in different countries or for different types of cases. In the U.S., there is the concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a higher standard than proof by a preponderance of the evidence, the usual standard in a civil matter.

So obviously this non-existent difference obviously cannot be the main difference between Civil and Common Law systems! The main difference is the so-called "source of law" -- in Common Law, it's mainly precedent, while in most Civil Law systems, it's mostly codified. But even this difference should not be exaggerated -- we have statutes and codes in Common Law systems, too, and more and more. And not all Civil Law legal systems are code systems -- for example, there is also something called "Roman-Dutch Law", uncodified Civil Law.

Here's a good, short summary for the layman, for anyone who is interested: Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 25-10-2012, 09:21   #557
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Originally Posted by cheoah View Post
Are ya'll for real?

Sounds like two guys without much business experience trying to work out a bad business deal. Messy business.

I feel for both of them. The owner got quoted one price, based on an assumed weight. Boat was way overweight, but the professional trucker still carried it clear to the west coast without resolving first. The owner, if all this is correct, was essentially underquoted, and isn't paying a fair rate for 13 tons, cross country.

I think the trucker has to eat it. What kind of professional gets into a job, realizes the scope of work is well beyond the original, yet completes the job, only to renegotiate then? You get paid to do smart things. I'm sure he's done plenty of smart things, this just ain't one of them. If my business was moving boats, you bet your ass I'd have an accurate weight before I covered a county or two. If I can tell the difference between 5 cattle and 7 on a trailer, then a pro trucker could feel an extra 5 tons of yacht. There are weigh stations all over eastern NC, on the highways, and off, for farmers, etc.

For the Brit that feels sorry for us N Carolinians, please dont! We'll be just fine -- despite the slapstick antics of Big Dog --with our $90+ billion in Ag receipts, among many other redeeming industries. We do however, lament your unfortunate association with the BBC in light of recent events. I hate to be flippant about that, really, but makes the point that most of us don't associate an entire culture with one errant personality. Boatmans situation in Australia is a parallel here, but we don't hold Aussies to account for one sour deal. I mean, as voyagers, being open to other cultures, other points of view is something we excel at, right?

If the owner knowingly misrepresented the weight of the boat...well, this sounds like a personal problem, and this boat would be the tip of the iceberg. All speculation, as on an internet forum, one can represent themselves however they choose. I wonder if either party will regret this aspect of their deal in the end - the playing it out in a public forum part. The numbers speak for themselves, and it is clear that we are all getting some entertainment value out of it. Definitely some lessons, and very intersting to hear some attorneys and truckers chime in. Dsanduril, good info. Hope it gets resolved amiably, and that we get to find out, after slogging through the more tedious aspects of this thread.
He told me after loading the boat at the coast he drove to Lake Norman where he went to All Seasons and put the boat on another bigger trailer as he was not allowed to off load it ...he then went to charlotte and loaded the spar so to off set the shipping cost for the guy that owned the boat as he didnt want to pay the going rate ,he then sent the boat to calif. because the guy that wanted the spar told him that he couldnt leave the spar at the location because no one was there to receive it (?)so he went to calif. and was going to bring the spar back on the return trip after dropping off the boat...he said the boat was still on the trailer as was the spar ,since this mess started he sent someone to get the spar and it is now in TX, the boat is in an impound lot waiting for bob to call him and settle the payment matter...this man could not unload the boat after finding out about the over weight issue ,went to Lake Norman reset the boat onto another trailer because,he couldnt just abandon the thing he said ,as much as he would have liked to after being lowballed on the price for the transport.His costs were rising sohe went to Sparcraft to take on more freight to help off set the cost for the boat as Bob wanted to do it for less than the going rate, He said after he told Bob it was going to cost more because of the weight issues and the damage done to his trailer and truck, he stopped getting any phone calls from Bob and got nothing but emails stating he had made a deal and there would be no more money..seems it got ugly after the payment plan changed after Dan issued a change order due to the weight and subsequent damage to truck and trailer...I think I have this right , may not, good luck to all concerned...
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Old 25-10-2012, 09:56   #558
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicalescape View Post
He told me after loading the boat at the coast he drove to Lake Norman where he went to All Seasons and put the boat on another bigger trailer as he was not allowed to off load it ...he then went to charlotte and loaded the spar so to off set the shipping cost for the guy that owned the boat as he didnt want to pay the going rate ,he then sent the boat to calif. because the guy that wanted the spar told him that he couldnt leave the spar at the location because no one was there to receive it (?)so he went to calif. and was going to bring the spar back on the return trip after dropping off the boat...he said the boat was still on the trailer as was the spar ,since this mess started he sent someone to get the spar and it is now in TX, the boat is in an impound lot waiting for bob to call him and settle the payment matter...this man could not unload the boat after finding out about the over weight issue ,went to Lake Norman reset the boat onto another trailer because,he couldnt just abandon the thing he said ,as much as he would have liked to after being lowballed on the price for the transport.His costs were rising sohe went to Sparcraft to take on more freight to help off set the cost for the boat as Bob wanted to do it for less than the going rate, He said after he told Bob it was going to cost more because of the weight issues and the damage done to his trailer and truck, he stopped getting any phone calls from Bob and got nothing but emails stating he had made a deal and there would be no more money..seems it got ugly after the payment plan changed after Dan issued a change order due to the weight and subsequent damage to truck and trailer...I think I have this right , may not, good luck to all concerned...
How is Dan basing his claim for overweight? Is it based on a reading from a travel lift which are not tested, calibrated or considered accurate or is it from a certified truck scale which is all of these? If he has a weight ticket from the scale it will show the gross weight and he certainly would know the tare wt of his trailer.

I still find it very hard to believe that a 34' boat would weigh 27,000 lbs, even fully loaded with fuel, water and stores. I have fairly heavy, center cockpit 42' boat that doesn't weigh that much. A Westsail 32 that is considered a very heavy displacement boat is around 20,000 lbs.
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Old 25-10-2012, 10:06   #559
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

Yep, my last boat was an extremely heavily built and ballasted 36'er, weighed 21,000 tanks full and rig up. I can't imagine how you could get up to that weight on a similar sized boat.
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Old 25-10-2012, 10:11   #560
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

Extorsion seems to sum it up.
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Old 25-10-2012, 10:25   #561
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Originally Posted by tropicalescape View Post
He told me after loading the boat at the coast he drove to Lake Norman where he went to All Seasons and put the boat on another bigger trailer as he was not allowed to off load it ...he then went to charlotte and loaded the spar so to off set the shipping cost for the guy that owned the boat as he didnt want to pay the going rate ,he then sent the boat to calif. because the guy that wanted the spar told him that he couldnt leave the spar at the location because no one was there to receive it (?)so he went to calif. and was going to bring the spar back on the return trip after dropping off the boat...he said the boat was still on the trailer as was the spar ,since this mess started he sent someone to get the spar and it is now in TX, the boat is in an impound lot waiting for bob to call him and settle the payment matter...this man could not unload the boat after finding out about the over weight issue ,went to Lake Norman reset the boat onto another trailer because,he couldnt just abandon the thing he said ,as much as he would have liked to after being lowballed on the price for the transport.His costs were rising sohe went to Sparcraft to take on more freight to help off set the cost for the boat as Bob wanted to do it for less than the going rate, He said after he told Bob it was going to cost more because of the weight issues and the damage done to his trailer and truck, he stopped getting any phone calls from Bob and got nothing but emails stating he had made a deal and there would be no more money..seems it got ugly after the payment plan changed after Dan issued a change order due to the weight and subsequent damage to truck and trailer...I think I have this right , may not, good luck to all concerned...
All this is no defense whatsoever for a commercial professional trucker (or trucking company).

I keep wondering why you are doing this guy's "defense" - on a public site where all your (and presumedly the truckers) comments (and defense) might be used in a trial.

Very strange - but it fits with all the actions (as reported) by the trucker (and you).

The fact remains - his actions so far are very far removed from how a responsible and professional trucker would have handled this situation. It continues to paint the picture of a person who's broke and is trying to squeeze money from an elderly client - and as reported by other clients have not performed his contracts with them either.

This whole weight issue I am quite sure is BS.
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Old 25-10-2012, 10:41   #562
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

The local TV news had a similar situation on last night. Moving companies are regularly holding peoples goods hostage for more money. They conveniently give a price that is called an "estimate" then want a lot more when the goods arrive.
In one case, another twist: a woman got a price from a moving company, but never said it was a "go" or signed a contract, she came home to find most of her stuff loaded in a truck..... She called the cops, they came, and the trucking guys unloaded and disappeared.
the basic note of the story was that often the cops say it is a civil matter. In that county this was reported 3000+ times and only 100+ were ever give to the prosecuter..... no wonder they do it!
Bottom line:beware of trucking companies that move anything valuable for you!
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Old 25-10-2012, 10:45   #563
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

In a recent post, it sounded like the trucker was blaming the boat owner for forcing him to take a low ball fare to haul his boat. Give me a break. The boat owner got several bids, and accepted one which was not the lowest. No one put any pressure on the trucker to bid on the job, and no one forced him to low ball it. I can hardly believe that the trucker would say such a thing. Even if he did say such, I have a very hard time understanding why anyone would repeat it on this forum as a defense of the trucker.

This thread is ripe with entertainment value.

PS attn moderator, please don't kick me off the forum, I don't mean to be harsh or rude. Just amazed.
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Old 25-10-2012, 11:00   #564
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
How is Dan basing his claim for overweight? Is it based on a reading from a travel lift which are not tested, calibrated or considered accurate or is it from a certified truck scale which is all of these? If he has a weight ticket from the scale it will show the gross weight and he certainly would know the tare wt of his trailer.

I still find it very hard to believe that a 34' boat would weigh 27,000 lbs, even fully loaded with fuel, water and stores. I have fairly heavy, center cockpit 42' boat that doesn't weigh that much. A Westsail 32 that is considered a very heavy displacement boat is around 20,000 lbs.
From Hampsted NC to Lake Norman NC there would be no Gov. scales. After the boat was on the trailer there was nowhere to off load It .. takes about 4 hrs to drive this distance...the boat went cross country on another trailer from what Don told me..
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Old 25-10-2012, 11:07   #565
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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Sabray, in response to your post I can only say that the price for my mast shipment was established by the shipper at the onset our communication, and paid in full. Why am I now placed in the postion of being required to pay further to have my property delivered. I think there is a name for this. I was in constant contact with Dan Steadley throughout this ordeal and I have a complete record of our texts concerning this matter. I would be happy to post it if the forum moderator has not objections. Then you can judge for yourself.
There is no objection, but subject to the normal forum rules. They can not be inflammatory.
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Old 25-10-2012, 11:12   #566
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Originally Posted by Christerart

This whole weight issue I am quite sure is BS.
I have owned no less than 7 trailers at any one time of various types for over the last twenty years. I have grossly overloaded many of them on many occasions. Once I loaded 5 tons of base rock in my 7k gvw dump trailer and the wheels were cambered like an old lowered vw bug. After delivery the trailer was fine.

There are too many clues that point to the truck driver lying.

1. It is unlikely for a boat this size to weigh that much. If it full of rainwater that is the driver's responsibility to notice. He is in charge of his load.

2. It is claimed that the driver demanded payment for 6 new tires, 6 new rims, and 6 sets of bearings. Never in my life have I or anyone I know ruined equipment like that. Tires possibly, but no way he bent or damaged all 6 rims, and no way all six bearing sets burned up. Especially all at the same time and by less than 10k lbs overload on a large three axle trailer. Overload doesn't work that way, and if it somehow did then they would also need 6 new spindles and most likely new brakes with backing plates and possibly hubs. Either it all melted or none of it did.

3. As stated by other posters, anyone very experienced in towing can feel the difference in weight immediately. Actually a discrepancy as large as the driver is claiming would be noticed as it was loaded by looking at trailer flex, axle flex, and especially tire flex. An overloaded trailer is very obvious to trained eyes. I can tell when I see other peoples trailers going down the road. I think other haulers will agree with me there.

4. Any professional would go straight to a local scale, ESPECIALLY if it felt or looked heavier than expected. Not 250 miles later. Then renegotiated or took it back to the pickup location.

5. Even if the pickup location refused to offload it, I would have left it there on the trailer until the price was re-negotiated, then until I brought the correct trailer for the job, or until the customer made arrangements to offload it. If unable to negotiate delivery price then demand it be unloaded or charge trailer lay days until off loaded. Refusal to deliver due to overweight and charging lay days until off loaded at the pick up location would in my mind be very reasonable.

6. I have never in my life been asked to pay for a delivery company's repair or maintenance of their equipment. I am not responsible for their care and use or abuse of their equipment. It is impossible for my load to hurt their equipment. Any damage is due to their inadequate performance or judgement. They are the professional and they are being paid to know what they are doing and to know how to do it right. If they mess up, they lose money on that job. Their problem.


The truck driver is 100% to blame in my opinion. Very poor business practice. Even if the customer purposely lied about anything or everything, the professional is responsible to make sure everything is worked out properly. Including identifying the details of the load, the trip details, the permits, the price, and the contract. The trucker is the professional in this relationship. Or should have been. Period.
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Old 25-10-2012, 11:13   #567
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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From Hampsted NC to Lake Norman NC there would be no Gov. scales. After the boat was on the trailer there was nowhere to off load It .. takes about 4 hrs to drive this distance...the boat went cross country on another trailer from what Don told me..
And there are NO commercial, private (but certified) scales for all that distance? How do you know this?

And while we are at it - why don't you ask the trucker to show you a CERTIFIED scale ticket of the boat - with proof it was actually the particular boat that was weighed?

As far as I've read, the trucker has no such ticket - not even from all those miles on the *other* trailer before he put the trailer and boat in a lock down storage. Would be extremely easy to *prove* the actual weight - and the trucker has not done so - even when asked many times.

Strange, *very* strange.

My previos comments stand.
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Old 25-10-2012, 11:13   #568
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

I actually towed my boat from Hampstead to Charlotte/Lake Norman and vice versa. The most direct route does not involve interstates and goes through the middle of lots of small towns. It is about a 4-5 hour trip depending on traffic and stops.

Regardless, he should have had the rig weighed before leaving the Wilmington area. It is the truckers responsibility.
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Old 25-10-2012, 11:13   #569
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

I said I had finished posting about this but since TropicalEscape is in constant contact with Dan, I was wondering if he could verify if the Dan Steadley who spoke at a function in El Paso recently is the same Dan Steadley the trucker we are speaking about. Trucker Dan claims to live in El Paso and tells everyone he is an attorney so it seems a big coincidence if this not him. Here's what I got off line.

Daniel M. Steadley, Esq., Georgetown School of Law, Juris Doctor,
will be our Guest Speaker.
Dan has served in the past as Deputy Chief of Staff
in the Joint Economic Committee
as well as being a Staff Member for the
US Senate Banking Committee,
Senator Strom Thurmond SC (R), Senator Connie Mack FL (R),
President George H.W. Bush, President Ronald Reagan,
and Congresswoman Margorie Holt MD (R).
He also served in the U.S. Navy Reserves at the JAG Headquarters
and Special Operations Command in the Pentagon.
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Old 25-10-2012, 11:16   #570
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Re: Boat Held Hostage By Marine Transport Company

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I have owned no less than 7 trailers at any one time of various types for over the last twenty years. I have grossly overloaded many of them on many occasions. Once I loaded 5 tons of base rock in my 7k gvw dump trailer and the wheels were cambered like an old lowered vw bug. After delivery the trailer was fine.

There are too many clues that point to the truck driver lying.

1. It is unlikely for a boat this size to weigh that much. If it full of rainwater that is the driver's responsibility to notice. He is in charge of his load.
2. It is claimed the the driver demanded payment for 6 new tires, 6 new rims, and 6 sets of bearings. Never in my life have I or anyone I know ruined equipment like that. Tires possibly, but no way he bent or damaged all 6 rims, and no way all six bearing sets burned up. Especially all at the same time and by less than 10k lbs overload on a large three axle trailer. Overload doesn't work that way, and if it somehow did then they would also need 6 new spindles and most likely new brakes with backing plates and possibly hubs. Either it all melted or none of it did.
3. As stated by other posters, anyone very experienced in towing can feel the difference in weight immediately. Actually a discrepancy as large as the driver is claiming would be noticed as it was loaded by looking at trailer flex, axle flex, and especially tire flex. An overloaded trailer is very obvious to trained eyes. I can tell when I see other peoples trailers going down the road. I think other haulers will agree with me there.
4. Any professional would go straight to a local scale, especially if it felt or looked heavier than expected. Not 250 miles later. Then renegotiated or took it back to the pickup location.
5. Even if the pickup location refused to offload it, I would have left it there on the trailer until the price was re-negotiated, then until I brought the correct trailer for the job, or until the customer made arrangements to offload it. If unable to negotiate delivery price then demand it be unloaded or charge trailer lay days until off loaded.
6. I have never in my life been asked to pay for a delivery company's repair or maintenance of their equipment. I am not responsible for their care and use or abuse of their equipment. It is impossible for my load to hurt their equipment. Any damage is due to their inadequate performance or judgement. They are the professional and they are being paid to know what they are doing and to know how to do it right. If they mess up, they lose money on that job. Their problem.


The truck driver is 100% to blame in my opinion. Very poor business practice. Even if the customer purposely lied about anything, the professional is responsible to make sure everything is worked out properly. Including identifying the details of the load, the trip details, the price, and the contract. The trucker is the professional in this relationship. Or should have been. Period.
HEAR HEAR!
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