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Old 06-10-2013, 21:10   #121
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Gees never been quoted so much, I must be wrong or worded my reply poorly. I was referring to off shore coastal use.

First, they say non swimmers should NOT use inflatables because you must self inflate if the CO2 does not work. It takes an adult less then 60 seconds to drown, a non swimmer would be toast.

Secondly, I think most inflatable harnesses are crappy( the harness part), my opinion . Pop your inflatable harness on and go hang by a halyard, most will not be up to the task. Much has to do with sizing, but also crappy material.

I prefer not to fall in by having a properly fitted harness and being clicked in at all times. I like to use an inflatable for when I roam in the dinghy, on a lake, or ICW. I thought the OP was on a river heading to coastal conditions.

Oh and therapy, I was referring to the seat cushion like throwable. They are good back ups with throw rings. In a MOB we throw the life ring,MOB pole ( when we had one) and any throw cushions nearby, the more the merry in that situation.

When I don the type 1 foam life jacket, my harness is still useable.
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Old 06-10-2013, 21:22   #122
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Firstly , a good inflatable with an integral harness and of you really want it a hydostatic release , is a far better jacket then a bulky rigid one, which is unlikely to be worn when you fall in.

Furthermore a proper certified 150 N or better a 270N will right a unconscious victim and raise their head up . What you say about swimmers is nonsense.
Our EU ones are hydrostatic release type , have built in safety harnesses AND crutch straps to prevent riding up, they are the 270N models and will right an unconscious person. You can even obtain optional hoods and face masks to keep spray off the face if you go overboard in big seas

Quote:
Inflates are superior because combined with a harness they are comfortable deflated and likely to be worn , hence actually useful

Dave
Exactly so, but most USA sail boats I see have no proper harness stays fitted to clip on to. Guard rails are simply not strong enough for that purpose IMO. BTW I AM no fan of compulsory equipment lists and even less so of compulsory licencing.Education education education every time coupled with a keen sense of self preservation is the key.

However I am a recent immigrant with my American wife ( who sailed with me for 25 years and over 50,000 miles the other side of the pond) so we will comply with the CG requirements and I will try not to pi55 off the locals and especially the costguard if boarded, I really prefer not to be hated, especially for preaching my personal views
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Old 06-10-2013, 22:14   #123
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Just a point , the flag of a boat does not protect you from the application of local laws. Once inside a countries territory , yiu are subject to whatever laws apply. If the USCG rules only apply to us vessels that's fine, but that's because of the way the law was framed.
If yiu sailed into french waters , you would be subject to their safety rules for yachts irrespective of flag , equally in Irish waters you would be subject to their lifejacket rules.
Dave
So sez you. I was simply repeating what the USCG boarding parties tell us. Given that they have implemented joint US/Canadian parties to deal with precisely the situation I referred to I'll take their word over yours if its all the same to you. But thanks for your opinion.
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:07   #124
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That was the islands race back in March. Uncontrollable Urge went aground on a lee shore. Most of the Mustang inflatables worn by the crew failed. One guy died. The US Sailing report below made the recommendations you speak of.
http://media.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=21870
The jackets were Spinlock not Mustang. 4 of 5 Spinlock jackets went over the wearer's head and one died. No determination whether that contributed to his death.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:28   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
I have yet to see any inflatables that are CG approved when not worn. If you could post the model number of the ones you have, I would appreciate it. I would like to learn more about them.

Thanks,
Jim
Ok, here is the current deal with USCG regulations on wearing PFDs..... If they are marked as type I, II, or III, then they do not have to be worn to count, but if they are marked as type IV then you have to be following the restrictions on the label for them to count and many/most of the inflatable type IV's say in their label they must be worn to count.

Originally all the inflatables were considered IV, but in the past several years they have approved several models as type IIIs, and there is at least one approved as a type II - it's a mustang West Model # 7911654 | Mustag model MD3184-RD/BK.

Here is the text of the uscg regs. . . .

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-200...5-subpartB.pdf

Note: the uscg is currently in the process of entirely reworking their life jacket typing and labeling process, so the details of this will all change at some point in the undefined future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin3 View Post
Actually no, you are obliged to comply with the laws of your country of registry, British vessels regularly sail in French waters for example without having to comply with French regulations, in fact Brit regulations do not require lifejackets, recommended yes but NOT compulsory.
That is correct, and goboating is incorrect. This was tested all the way up to the queens court in NZ about 2 decades ago, when NZ tried to enforce their national safety regulations on foreign vessels. The same has been tried in chile and also thrown out. The basis for throwing these sorts of requirements out is they have been found to be in clear violation of the international IMO treaty, which most countries have signed.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:31   #126
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
The inflatables that I saw at West a few weeks ago were triggered by a dissolving ring. Apparently, that type does still exist.

I have yet to see any inflatables that are CG approved when not worn. If you could post the model number of the ones you have, I would appreciate it. I would like to learn more about them.

Thanks,
Jim
Ours are Revere ComfortMax Offshore. The GC approval label on them clearly states that it is a "type V approved as a substitute for a type II".

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Old 07-10-2013, 07:46   #127
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
What I find perverse is that the OP has the money for a Lagoon 410, but not for some decent safety equipment.

Even if you are wearing them, the inflatable PFDs are to be regarded as a precautionary measure. One of the recommendations after the recent incident where a sailboat ran aground (someone remind me of the name?) was that if you have time, and the boat is sinking, go and take your inflatable off and put on a proper life jacket. Why? They don't ride over your head as easily, they provide thermal insulation, and protection from impact ie rocks.

Bare minimum - get a spare bag of 4 runabout lifejackets - $60 from West Marine.
Where did you get the idea I don't have decent safety equipment?? Did you read all the posts? Did you read this?

"With the exception of the not CG approved extinguishers and confusion on my part about the rules regarding type v PFD's, my boat and my attitude towards safety go far beyond what is offered in those lists and pamphlets you find at marinas and West Marine. They are good for their target audience, the weekend boater. Again, with the exception if the extinguishers I had everything onboard that they required and more. Heck, even my dog has a PDF. Safety carries over even on the dink. Onboard is a handheld VHF, PFD's, at least one throwable, anchor, a few tools, a few spares, small pair binoculars, one spare 50' line, patch kit, two whistles, bailer, nav light and boarding ladder. Now that's just on the dink! How might you think my boat is prepared and equipped? For those that think maybe I'm a little short on safety knowledge, respectfully, please think again... "

I really don't have the time to give a full rundown of all the safety equipment I have onboard. I did take another count of pfd's onboard and here's what I have...
1) six offshore type pfd's
2) four ski type pfd's
3) two auto inflates
4) two inflatables that you wear around your waist
5) two Personal Locating Beacons that can be attached to which ever pfd we happen to be wearing or to ourselves.
6) one pfd for the dog, unfortunately cats are not so lucky..


That's for two people. If we have quests aboard and we don't have enough pfd's for each and every one of them, then I ask that they bring their own.

I really didn't mind the boarding and now I know about type V pfd's. I did mind the suggestion that they felt my boat unfit for further use until I had CG approved extinguishers onboard. Just to remind those that haven't read this whole thread, I did have four working extinguishers onboard, just not CG approved.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:59   #128
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

A Coast Guard boarding officer who observes a boat being operated in an UNSAFE CONDITION, specifically defined by law or regulation, and who determines that an ESPECIALLY HAZARDOUS CONDITION exists, may direct the operator to take immediate steps to correct the condition, including returning to port.
Termination of unsafe conditions may be imposed for:

Insufficient number of CG Approved Personal Flotation Devices (PFDs)

Insufficient fire extinguishers

Overloading condition

Improper navigation light display

Fuel leakage

Fuel in bilge’s

Improper ventilation

Improper backfire flame control

Manifestly unsafe voyage

http://www.uscg.mil/d1/prevention/Na...nforcement.PDF
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:11   #129
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid at SailAway View Post
they felt my boat unfit for further use until I had CG approved extinguishers onboard. Just to remind those that haven't read this whole thread, I did have four working extinguishers onboard, just not CG approved.
What type and make of fire extinguishers were they? This is one of my peeves - the typical CGA extinguishers are actually harmful to have on board. They may put out a fire (most are too small for much), but they leave a mess that will be expensive and difficult to remedy.

The much better industrial and commercial extinguishers are mostly not CGA. They are approved by every other regulatory body, so I don't understand the CG non-approval, while the small cheap $10 Walmart ones are approved.

Like I stated earlier, none of our expensive halotron and foam extinguishers are CG approved. They are mounted in fixed brackets, have pressure gauges on them, have safety pins, stamped dates and inspection intervals, and everything else in the regs.

Yet, while the CG disapproves of us having 6 of these units mounted bow to stern, inside and out, they are happy that I keep 2 small, cheap CGA extinguishers buried deep together in an interior locker to dig out when inspected.

Go figure.

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Old 07-10-2013, 08:52   #130
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

PORTABLE FIRE EXTINGUISHERS

APPROVAL CATEGORY: 162.028

APPROVAL GUIDANCE & INFORMATION: The Coast Guard does not conduct approval review of Portable Fire Extinguishers. The regulations require that extinguishers are tested, and listed and labeled by a Coast Guard recognized Independent Testing Laboratory. The Listing includes testing, and follow-up inspections by the recognized Independent Testing Laboratory at the manufacturer’s production facilities. Currently, Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL) and Underwriters Laboratories of Canada (ULC) are Recognized Independent Laboratories. Essentially, the recognized Independent Testing Laboratories administer the Coast Guard’s extinguisher approval program on the Coast Guard’s behalf with Coast Guard oversight.

The USCG marking requirements for marine extinguishers differs from NFPA/UL markings. The USCG rates extinguishers primarily on net agent weight rather than on fire test size as determined by ANSI/UL711. Extinguishers with agent weights below those referenced in the vessels regulations and which do not have a minimum 5-B:C fire test rating per ANSI/UL711 are considered too small for marine use and are not approvable.

The Coast Guard does not issue certificates of approval for portable fire extinguishers. Instead, an approved extinguisher are can be identified by the marine type label, such as “Marine Type, USCG approved, Type X. Size X, USCG approval number 162.028/XX.” The XX signifies the laboratory’s identification number for the particular extinguisher. USCG approved extinguishers are listed in the laboratory’s equipment directories and web sites.

The extinguishers are tested for compliance with the applicable ANSI/UL standards. Specifically, extinguishers are expected to comply with the following:

Foam extinguishers (ANSI/UL8)*
Carbon dioxide extinguishers (ANSI/UL154)
Dry chemical extinguishers (ANSI/UL299)
Water extinguishers, stored pressure (ANSI/UL626) *
Halocarbon clean agent extinguishers (ANSI/UL2129)
Fire tests (ANSI/UL711)

* The Coast Guard currently requires additional corrosion tests for unpainted stainless steel extinguisher shells because of prior corrosion problems such shells experienced in a marine environment. This has limited the number of approved water and foam extinguishers.

The maintenance of extinguishers must be in accordance with NFPA#10, as stated on each extinguisher label.

Here ➥ USCG: Fire Extinguishing Systems

And
A BOATER’S GUIDE TO THE FEDERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR RECREATIONAL BOATS
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...ations/420.PDF
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:29   #131
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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The jackets were Spinlock not Mustang.
Thank you. My bad. I read that a few weeks ago & I spoke from memory. I should have read it again before posting. It was Spinlock, not Mustang.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:30   #132
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

OK, so for our halotron:
5lb agent weight
ANSI/US 711 and ANSI/UL 2129
Classification 5-B:C

But no CGA label on it.

I am far more comfortable on our vessel having 6 better performing and safer extinguishers that are not CGA than having the 2 required cheap and harmful CGA ones (well, we do keep those around to trot out for inspections).

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Old 07-10-2013, 10:43   #133
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

can the CG terminate a voyage from a foreign registration?
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:15   #134
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Counting inflatable lifejackets 101

We normally have the CG Auxiliary do our yearly safety inspections.

They do this at a dock.

They count the lifejackets, and I also show them the half dozen old orange buggers I have under the V berth.

Never had a problem

I'm also pretty sure that the CHECKLIST they use is either on the CG website or the CG Aux website if not both.

You can do your own pre-inspection if you like.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:52   #135
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Actually no, you are obliged to comply with the laws of your country of registry, British vessels regularly sail in French waters for example without having to comply with French regulations, in fact Brit regulations do not require lifejackets, recommended yes but NOT compulsory. UK authorities believe in education rather than compulsion, a trust that is lacking in the USA it seems but then there are some dumb antics that might justify that lack of trust, albeit by a small minority of idiots. I will stand by for incoming...
Nope wrong sorry. Sail into Ireland on any flag you like and you are required to obey the lifejacket laws.

The French safety rules clearly and unambiguously apply to all craft and the French will pull you irrespective of your flag. This I know for a fact. Merely because you get away with it or an official couldn't be bothered prosecuting you is irrelevant.

Flag confers no immunity.

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