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Old 16-10-2013, 06:51   #271
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

By the way, in the Fort Lauderdale case here is what CBP said was the rule . . .

"pleasure boats from foreign countries must obtain clearance before leaving a port or place in the U.S. and proceeding either to a foreign port or place or going to another port or place in the U.S."

Note it says nothing about changing CBO zone, just "going to another port or place".
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Old 16-10-2013, 06:55   #272
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
In Michigan dinghys with motors must be registered because they are not in the exempt class.

Watercraft exempt from registration are:
  • Those 16 feet or shorter, propelled by oars or paddles, and not used for rental or commercial purposes;
  • Nonmotorized canoes and kayaks not used for rental or commercial purposes, rafts, surfboards, sailboards, and swim floats, regardless of length; and
  • Watercraft registered in another state and used only temporarily in Michigan.
If you don't put a motor on the dinghy you don't need to register it in Michigan.
Thanks . . . Do you know how that would be applied to an out of state boat, where registration is not required?
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Old 16-10-2013, 06:58   #273
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Thanks . . . Do you know how that would be applied to an out of state boat, where registration is not required?
See above correction to post. Great minds think alike?
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Old 16-10-2013, 07:52   #274
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
In Michigan dinghys with motors must be registered because they are not in the exempt class.





Watercraft exempt from registration are:
  • Those 16 feet or shorter, propelled by oars or paddles, and not used for rental or commercial purposes;
  • Nonmotorized canoes and kayaks not used for rental or commercial purposes, rafts, surfboards, sailboards, and swim floats, regardless of length; and
  • Watercraft registered in another state and used only temporarily in Michigan.
If you don't put a motor on the dinghy you don't need to register it in Michigan.
Interestingly, the question of what to do in the case of a craft temporarily in Michigan that is exempt in another state but might be, for example 18 feet long. I think you could chase your tail forever on this topic.
That seems to be pretty much as I understand it here in Florida too. When we bought our current boat a title change company handled the USCG Documentation and also Florida registered the tender (it had a 9,9Mercury ). We subsequently gave the dinghy away as it was well past it's sell by date and later found that the motor, an ancient 2 stroke Mercury, wouldn't run and also needed replacing. We treated ourselves to a new West hypalon RIB310 and a new 4 stroke 9,9 hp Mercury so we then needed to get a FL State title for the RIB, register the dinghy and put the numbers on it plus we then had a decal to stick on to show we had paid the FL use tax. It was the local Volusia County Tag office in Daytona (which also does all the vehicle plates, tags and stuff) that told us we had to carry the dinghy papers in the dinghy at all times, ie the same as we need to carry the papers for the car in the car at all times. I asked of other boaters and they said much the same and even mentioned the greater likelihood of being asked for papers when out in the dinghy than when out in the big boat, by the FLORIDA FISH & wildlife guys or marine police. I was also told that the waterborne authorities, whatever flavor they come in, do not accept an "oh it is back on board the big boat, do you want to come over and inspect it there?". On another liveaboard forum, people told me how they kept the dinghy docs safe which is why I bought a small inexpensive waterproof map pouch from Dicks to hold the papers and which I will keep in the waterproof zippered under thwart bag I bought from West and which is purpose made for our new West Dinghy. All this seems very complicated but we like to be prepared and be welcomed rather than confronted by a variety authorities seemingly bound and determined to find us at fault in some way. We live here and want to feel accepted not made to feel in " beam us up Scottie" mode every time one of the uniformed brigade comes near.
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Old 16-10-2013, 08:01   #275
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Being a Canadian vessel, transiting down the west coast US in 2012, we would call local CBP office after entering a new port. The majority of the time, they were surprised to hear from us, said they would make a note of it and thanked us. We did not call them if we changed anchorages within one area though.
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Old 16-10-2013, 08:15   #276
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Regarding dinghy registration papers . . . Can anyone provide link/text to a rule that requires this? I do not have any, never been asked for them. I believe (but could be wrong) they are not required in Vermont (my home port), and not required as I transit other states (spending less than 60 days in each). But there are so many rules I could be wrong about all that.
FL rules about the same as reported for MI

All vessels, with the exception of non-motor-powered vessels less than 16 feet in length, non-motor-powered canoes, kayaks, racing shells or rowing sculls, regardless of length, must be registered through your local Tax Collector's Office

Also

Florida recognizes valid registration certificates and numbers issued to visiting boaters for a period of 90 days. An owner who intends to use his vessel in Florida longer than 90 days must register it with a county tax collector. However, he may retain the out-of-state registration number if he plans to return to his home state within a reasonable period of time.

Documented vessels without a state registration in full force and effect must also obtain a Florida registration and display the validation decal on the port side of the vessel when using Florida waters

Regarding foreign flagged vessels that would exempt from these rules, the local law enforcement agencies seem to be completely unaware of this issue. I have seen several reports and complaints of dinks from overseas cruisers getting stopped for not showing registration numbers, including MarkJ when he was in Key West.
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Old 16-10-2013, 08:16   #277
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
By the way, in the Fort Lauderdale case here is what CBP said was the rule . . .

"pleasure boats from foreign countries must obtain clearance before leaving a port or place in the U.S. and proceeding either to a foreign port or place or going to another port or place in the U.S."

Note it says nothing about changing CBO zone, just "going to another port or place".
The CBP doesn't know its arm from its elbow. I entered the US without a visa, just like I would if arriving by plane. No problem, but looking up the rules now it isn't allowed. Phew, got away with that luckily.

However I did arrive without an original of my boat papers. I asked before I arrived at two customs offices by phone if this was OK as the originals were not available to me and they said fine, both of them in different cities, just to be sure. I arrived and faced the whirlwind of demons for breaking US law. At the first office I was reprimanded sternly and with very harsh and rude language. I felt like a criminal. I was denied a cruising permit and told to proceed to the next port and submit the ships papers and fill in a ton of forms again. So at the next port I called by phone to make an appointment and they said fine, we don't need to see you proceed on your journey. At the third port I reported again and faced the demon from hell. Words to the effect of: "You have broken US law. For an offence like this we siezed a boat last week". "You shouldn't have entered US waters and we may have to require you return to the Bahamas". (Remember, a photocopy only, no original and no evidence of being an enemy of the state). She required to see all my crew and asked me to get them. (a $100 taxi ride away). Eventually her boss came out hearing her shrill voice and stern language and chatted to me a while. Was very pleasant and gave me all the papers including the cruising permit and sent me on my way. Phew again.

I was told to report when changing reporting areas and the areas are on the website, it being not necessary to notify when moving the boat within a reporting area unlike the rules others here report. More confusion. Looks like I missed more trouble again. Phew x 3.

When leaving the US I called to ask where to clear out. I was told just go, we don't need your details and no documents are produced. I said it was a requirement as seen on the CBP website. I was told rather sternly "We don't need to see you, just leave". I didn't give and wasn't asked for my details. I probably broke the law again, didn't get caught. I really don't know how I escaped the system. Phew x 4.

Apart from all this confusion there is a real bully culture in the CBP. I found it really intimidating. Sure, lots of good and civil guys, but far too many aren't nice and abuse their power.
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Old 16-10-2013, 08:35   #278
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
The CBP doesn't know its arm from its elbow. I entered the US without a visa, just like I would if arriving by plane. No problem, but looking up the rules now it isn't allowed. Phew, got away with that luckily.

However I did arrive without an original of my boat papers. I asked before I arrived at two customs offices by phone if this was OK as the originals were not available to me and they said fine, both of them in different cities, just to be sure. I arrived and faced the whirlwind of demons for breaking US law. At the first office I was reprimanded sternly and with very harsh and rude language. I felt like a criminal. I was denied a cruising permit and told to proceed to the next port and submit the ships papers and fill in a ton of forms again. So at the next port I called by phone to make an appointment and they said fine, we don't need to see you proceed on your journey. At the third port I reported again and faced the demon from hell. Words to the effect of: "You have broken US law. For an offence like this we siezed a boat last week". "You shouldn't have entered US waters and we may have to require you return to the Bahamas". (Remember, a photocopy only, no original and no evidence of being an enemy of the state). She required to see all my crew and asked me to get them. (a $100 taxi ride away). Eventually her boss came out hearing her shrill voice and stern language and chatted to me a while. Was very pleasant and gave me all the papers including the cruising permit and sent me on my way. Phew again.

I was told to report when changing reporting areas and the areas are on the website, it being not necessary to notify when moving the boat within a reporting area unlike the rules others here report. More confusion. Looks like I missed more trouble again. Phew x 3.

When leaving the US I called to ask where to clear out. I was told just go, we don't need your details and no documents are produced. I said it was a requirement as seen on the CBP website. I was told rather sternly "We don't need to see you, just leave". I didn't give and wasn't asked for my details. I probably broke the law again, didn't get caught. I really don't know how I escaped the system. Phew x 4.

Apart from all this confusion there is a real bully culture in the CBP. I found it really intimidating. Sure, lots of good and civil guys, but far too many aren't nice and abuse their power.
Sorry to hear you had such an unpleasant experience but unfortunately you are not the first I have heard. While CBP may be particularly bad if it makes you feel any better, they are not the only US government agency whose employees do not understand their own rules and enforce them inconsistently.

One defense is to take the names, dates and any other details you can of everyone you speak with that gives you any advise or opinions. Yes that is a bit of a pain in the posterior but might save you a big headache down the road.
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Old 16-10-2013, 08:56   #279
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Can you provide support for this statement?

I ask because the most notorious notification case involved a vessel moving between marinas inside fort Lauderdale. In that case, CBP said the rule was designed to allow them to locate the boat and there was no exception inside a CBP zone.

We get asked to help foreign cruisers with these sort of problems, so I would love to know if there is a "only when changing CBO zones" clause.

Regarding dinghy registration papers . . . Can anyone provide link/text to a rule that requires this? I do not have any, never been asked for them. I believe (but could be wrong) they are not required in Vermont (my home port), and not required as I transit other states (spending less than 60 days in each). But there are so many rules I could be wrong about all that.
I have to assume the case you are referring to the vessel did not have a CBP cruising license. A foreign vessel without a cruising license must obtain a "Permission to Proceed" (at a cost of $37.50) whenever the vessel moves. How large of itinerary one "Permission to Proceed" covers is unknown to me.

Noodle around CBP website and you'll find what you are looking for. WRT cruising license:

Quote:
Cruising licenses exempt pleasure boats of certain countries from having to undergo formal entry and clearance procedures such as filing manifests and obtaining permits to proceed as well as from the payment of tonnage tax and entry and clearance fees at all but the first port of entry. These licenses can be obtained from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Port Director at the first port of arrival in the United States. Cruising licenses are normally valid for up to a year.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...3D/suggested/1
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Old 16-10-2013, 11:41   #280
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

For US and Canadian citizen, the SMALL VESSEL REPORTING PROGRAM (SVRS) :

https://svrs.cbp.dhs.gov/Documents/SVRSFlyer.pdf

https://svrs.cbp.dhs.gov/Documents/S...ptanceForm.pdf
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Old 16-10-2013, 14:05   #281
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

ghostrider-
The boarding you describe would be against the USCG's own published standards, and it endangers their personnel. Unless they had a good reason for running black, they are supposed to identify themselves by shining a light on their "stripe", on the ensign, and turn on various lights along with hailing the vessel they are closing on.
You would be doing them and us all a favor by sending in a formal protest to the District Commander in charge of that area, and the USCG Commandant's office, and probably CCing a copy to your own MP and Secretary of State or Admiralty. One good letter passed around to the usual suspects, and someone often gets a disciplinary note in their file. And, the outright dangerous behavior may get changed.

Robin-
I have often sailed with cheap TypeIII (comfortable zip-up style) vests simply zipped over the pushpit railings. They make handy back cushions, are in plain sight, and are easily accessible if you need to throw a float, etc. I haven't asked but I'd expect any local watercops would see "Oh, they've got PFDs on deck" and just move on to the next boat in search of lower-hanging fruit.

Evan-
" going to another port or place in the U.S."" That's arguably an imprecise and ambiguous wording and when that happens, a court is SUPPOSED to rule in favor of the looser definition. Of course "entry" level town courts are often just revenue makers staffed by untrained appointees who neither know nor care about anything except making revenue.
But "another...place" could literally be taken as five feet further down the same pier, sure, that's another "place". So a moron could insist that was the intent of the law. A kinder moron would say the "place" is the marina you are at, and shifting around inside the same marina is remaining in the same one place. The law needs to be rewritten to clarify that, but since Congress isn't open for business right now...

I'd expect Michigan's dinghy registration law runs the same as Florida and every other state. If it requires registration, it requires registration, period. Some states require it within xx days of entry, others require it immediately on entry, no grace period. I'd bet Michigan specifies the grace period (or lack of) in their motor vehicle regulations.
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Old 16-10-2013, 15:10   #282
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
I have to assume the case you are referring to the vessel did not have a CBP cruising license. A foreign vessel without a cruising license must obtain a "Permission to Proceed" (at a cost of $37.50) whenever the vessel moves. How large of itinerary one "Permission to Proceed" covers is unknown to me.

Noodle around CBP website and you'll find what you are looking for. WRT cruising license:



https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...3D/suggested/1

Yes, they had a cruising permit.

The text and link you provided does not say anything about when to notify after movement. It only seems to say that a cruising permit means that you do not have to buy advance permission to proceed.

By the way, looking at the CBP site I see that the text I quoted is now up there on a FAQ . . . So it seems to now be national policy rather than just Fort Lauderdale interpretation.
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Old 16-10-2013, 15:43   #283
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

^^

Just to be more specific ..... Your text does not say "you need to notify when you have moved to a new CBP jurisdiction, but only then". That is what you are suggesting is they rule, and what I was asking for evidence if.

My text, which is on the CBP site FAQs say essentially "notify whenever you move." With no qualification about changing CBP zones.
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Old 16-10-2013, 22:01   #284
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Regarding dinghy registration papers . . . Can anyone provide link/text to a rule that requires this? I do not have any, never been asked for them.
Here is a link to some of the rules in Florida. This is probably not the complete story.

Official Website Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles
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Old 16-10-2013, 22:10   #285
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Documented vessels without a state registration in full force and effect must also obtain a Florida registration and display the validation decal on the port side of the vessel when using Florida waters
I read that in the rules too, but my personal experience while getting stopped near Government Cut in Miami did not conform to that written rule. We got stopped for speeding (guilty as charged) in a boat with no numbers on it. The first question from the CG was "is that a documented vessel?" The captain answered in the affirmative. We then got a few choice words about appropriate speeds in the area & were on our way shortly thereafter. This was about a year ago on a 30-something foot center console outboard boat with T-top.

I think that out of state boats tend to get cut some slack in Florida unless they do something genuinely wrong.
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