Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-10-2013, 05:41   #241
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,753
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
So would the USCG also adopt that attitude? A foreign-flagged vessel is not subject to the US regs?.
I don't know if your curiosity here is theoretical or practical. If it is theoretical then we need an authoritative answer from the a USCG, which I suspect will be slow in coming.

However if your curiosity is practical, then the answer is already pretty clear. The USCG does in fact understand foreign vessels are foreign and does not impose us equipment requirements on them. There have been many many scuffles between us authorities and foreign yachts, most about cruising permits and notification requirements, but I am aware of none about trying to get a foreign yacht to carry uscg approved equipment. As I said above, there are a lot if Canadian boats passing thru; they do not carry uscg approved equipment, and this has all been well worked out.

Practically speaking, if you want to focus on the "real problem" for foreign yachts it is the notification requirements, which are interpreted quite differently in different parts of the country.

By the way, I think your interpretation of innocent passage is rather too narrow. But I don't think it worth debating, since it gets into the legal guts of multiple treaties and their interpretations, on which I (and I suspect you) am certaintly no expert. However, again, practically speaking, cruisers have been judged around the world to be on at least the legal equivalent of innocent passage while coastal cruising - for instance spending 6 months in NZ, or even 2 years in the Chilean channels. And at least two courts have rules that is protected by treaty and is not comity. This issue simply does not come up much, and the two times it has and been pursued, it has been slapped down hard by the courts.

Now back to the original topic, which was with a us boat. . . . . I am honestly quite surprised that the uscg would attempt to terminate the voyage and send the boat back to the dock in the situation described. My impression was that Terminating a voyage has usually been an extreme last resort, and the more usual approach in the described situation is/was some sort of warning to fix the defects. The USCG did not terminate the bounty voyage into sandy, despite being officially aware of the condition of the vessel and I officially aware of her departure plan. So my curiosity about the OP is whether the termination action reflects (a) more going on in this particular situation that described in the OP, or (b) an over aggressive on scene uscg officer, or (c) a shift in uscg policy toward more frequently using the termination option?
__________________

__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 05:52   #242
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,941
Images: 1
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Evans,

My interest is purely practical. I expect to be sailing up the east coast of the US and back down the ICW in about 3 years time, during an RTW. Whilst I am aware of the notification requirements (to be in strict compliance, the boater is supposed to notify the USCG when he expects to leave harbor, which harbour he will be going to and what time he expects to arrive - and he must check in when he has arrived - all very difficult to do in a sail boat, not to mention it does take some of the pleasure out of cruising)

Such is our lot.

I have heard that most Coasties don't that very seriously, the checking in and out. I'm told that generally once you have checked into the US, you can sail about freely without all the bureaucratic horseshoe*t

Or have I heard wrong?

I'm extremely pleased to hear that I will not have to meet USCG requirements insofar as USCG approved gear.

Thank you
__________________

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 06:06   #243
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,753
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I expect to be sailing up the east coast of the US and back down the ICW in about 3 years time, during an RTW.

Such is our lot.

I have heard that most Coasties don't that very seriously, the checking in and out. I'm told that generally once you have checked into the US, you can sail about freely without all the bureaucratic horseshoe*t

Or have I heard wrong?
Well, congratulations. Look us up in the Chesapeake bay when you get here. And try to get to Newfoundland . . . . It is the jewel of the east coast.

There are probably others here with more direct experience with the notification issues . . . But the major difficulties we have been involved with (trying to help the cruisers) have all occured in Florida. Elsewhere as you say, the officials seem to be relaxed about them.

In Florida we are still in a state of war against drugs and Cuba and illegal immigration, so there seems to be a much harder attitude there.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 06:31   #244
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,941
Images: 1
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Well, congratulations. Look us up in the Chesapeake bay when you get here. And try to get to Newfoundland . . . . It is the jewel of the east coast.

There are probably others here with more direct experience with the notification issues . . . But the major difficulties we have been involved with (trying to help the cruisers) have all occured in Florida. Elsewhere as you say, the officials seem to be relaxed about them.

In Florida we are still in a state of war against drugs and Cuba and illegal immigration, so there seems to be a much harder attitude there.
Evans,

Thanks for the invite, I'll do just that. We'll be crossing the pond i Nov/dec and expect to start north almost immediately, following the spring northwards as far as the weather will take us and turn south, following the fall back down to the Caribbean.

I'd certainly like to sail both the Maine cost, Prince Edward Island (was there about 50 years ago) New Brunswick and also Newfoundland. All these areas will remind us of Denmark/Sweden/ Norway and the Baltic.

Should the wind blow you by the Baltic - well I'll be happy to open a bottle of wine and help with any cruising information you could want. I have cruising contacts in all the Baltic countries.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 08:12   #245
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I have heard that most Coasties don't that very seriously, the checking in and out. I'm told that generally once you have checked into the US, you can sail about freely without all the bureaucratic horseshoe*t

Or have I heard wrong?
As a data point, we have Canadian friends on a Canadian boat that were fined $1,500 for moving to a different slip in a marina without notifying the USCG of their movement (the marina asked them to move). They went to court and had the fine reduced to $500, but it was still an aggressive move by the USCG.

This was in Virginia.

Up to that point, they had been notifying the USCG every time they left and entered a port, and had done so in this case. It appears the USCG also requires foreign vessels to notify them if they move within a harbor as well as between harbors.

That whole incident embarrassed me - those were good people trying hard to comply with a tough and unequally applied law and see our country. Now they have left and plan never to return.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 09:36   #246
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlantic ICW 29N/81W
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 36CC, now sold
Posts: 817
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Not withstanding any of the previous and any slightly side issues, we have a further complication in that we ARE a Us documented vessel, Me Brit, her American (and documented owner as I cannot be). We shipped quite a bit of stuff over from the UK as we were going to be liveaboards and that included our top of the line fully automatic Inflatable PFDs with built in harnesses. Now unlless thngs have changed I believe these Crewsaver Crewfit PFDs are not USCG approved (they are not labeled as such, only as CE approved) and therefore they cannot count towards the USCG safety requirements for PFDs to be on board. We do have the very basic PFDs that came with our boat and enough of them to comply (we have 6 and we sail as a couple) but heck we want to use our own stuff which is much better. It seems like we should maybe just put theUSCG approved stuff in a bag in the RIB hung off the back so if asked anytime by USCG we can easily point to them ( and they will be there if stopped in the dink), and then keep our good stuff for when we properly at sea and need something rather better that can be worn routinely underway and allow clipping on, without making normal deckwork any more difficult by it's sheer bulk .
__________________
Robin3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 10:19   #247
Registered User
 
Zanshin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 57
Posts: 1,621
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

To add to Colemj's post - I had a cruising permit and that came with a very thick photocopied list of telephone numbers that I had to call each and every time the boat moved. That included lifting and dropping anchor in the same place or changing dock positions (I was warned about that). These tight rules are there despite the checks done when applying for the cruising permit - these are by far the most restrictive sailing rules that I have encountered. I missed calling in on the last day and when I did my outbound clearance in Norfolk I was severely chastised but "let off", while my dockyard neighbour (another UK flagged sailboat) got into serious trouble for the same infraction. On the other hand, all of the USCG and DHS personell I dealt with were uniformly polite and professional.
__________________
-Zanshin (SV Zanshin)
Zanshin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 11:32   #248
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,753
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
these are by far the most restrictive sailing rules that I have encountered.
The US regs suck, and I agree with a post above they embarrass me, and I wish I could have some way to change them, but I do not even know how or where they are formulated.

I will note that Australian authorities can be difficult. We got into trouble in Australia twice for (a) "not giving the 96 hour notice of arrival" - we got if on that because we in fact gave 69 day advance notice because our passage to Australia took 59 days at sea, but they told us that they judged that 69 day notice was "too speculative". And when we arrived in Hobart (b) for not properly notifing the authorities (in Hobart and along the south coast) that we had moved harbors. We got off that one because we actually had in writing from the Fremantle authorities that we did not need to check in as we sailed along the coast.

And in Europe the schengen treaty can be difficult to deal with.

So the US rules suck, but we do have good company.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 13:26   #249
Registered User
 
svmariane's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently in South Pacific. Home Port: Vienna, Austria
Boat: Celestial, Stay'sl-Rigged Sloop, 48 ft
Posts: 1,164
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Re: Notifying the USCG when foreign flagged vessel is moved, and the hassles some have experienced

Maybe that's an East Coast / West Coast thing? Our experience out west with our Austrian-flagged vessel was easy-peasy, as is said.

Checked into Friday Harbor, Washington State, form Vancouver, CA. Picked up a cruising permit. Nothing was said about "checking in" as/when we moved and we knew nada. So we didn't do a thing about it.

Cruised the San Juans. Months later went out the strait and hung a left.

We were contacted over VHF by a USCG Cutter while we were on approach to the Columbia River, Oregon. When asked, we stated our intentions were to cross the bar and find anchorage. The cutter escorted us over the bar then went on their way. Nice, that. For those who don't know, the Columbia River bar is where the USCG trains for, well, watch ....

Many ports (and a few marinas) later... Anchored in Crescent City. Shared the anchorage with a USCG cutter. No contact. Wish they hadn't run their genset all night...

Many more ports later... Checked into a marina in Santa Barbara, Calif. Harbour Master looked at our Ship's Reg, said we needed to check in with the USCG, dialed the number, then slid his desk phone towards us. Two mins phone con and that was that.

Couple of months later... Tied up at the police dock in San Diego, Calif for outbound clearance procedures. That involved a taxi ride around the bay to the CG office at the cruise ship dock. In and out with our papers in about a half hour.

That was in, oh, 2007? Easy-peasy.
__________________
"Being offended is not the same thing as being right." Dave Barry.
Note: Offense is always taken, never given.
When life hands you lemons..... add gin & tonic!
svmariane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 13:47   #250
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlantic ICW 29N/81W
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 36CC, now sold
Posts: 817
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

[QUOTEThat was in, oh, 2007? Easy-peasy.][/QUOTE]

Yes but then came 9/11 and then full blown paranoia set in to let everyone know that the terrorists won and are controlling the country, Knee jerk retaliation from the rulers is to attack the indigenous population by making life difficult for normal folk to carry on with normal life unimpeded. years of bomb attacks in the UK by IRA terrorists did not succeed in closing down normal activities in the UK and quite the reverse as Brits (as am I) were very determined not to succumb and let the bar stewards know they were winning.

Sorry if that offends the sensitive in my adopted country, but it is what I think and I never could keep my mouth shut
__________________
Robin3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 14:11   #251
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Has anyone firmly provided a reference to the tender to" part of this discussion? As I understand it, it is NOT required by the USCG and dinghies are dealt with on a state-by-state basis. Is this correct? If not, please provide some links. Thanks.
From all of my memory (worth what you pay for it I guess ) that is about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
As soon as the U.S government is funded again and my query is answered, I'll post the response in full and we will have an official USCG response rather than having us try to interpret various legal texts.

The problem with that might be is that you will get an "official" answer from a dolt. Similar to an answer you get when you call the IRS. They can give you the wrong answer and you are still responsible for the consequences. And they do - 50% of the time.

I have read the horror story here and there but I think any USCG boarding should not really be an issue regarding life jackets, extinguishers, flares etc. If they find fault they will most probably just ask that you correct ASAP. Heavy fines, confiscation etc. should not really be at the forefront of your mind.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 14:24   #252
Registered User
 
svmariane's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently in South Pacific. Home Port: Vienna, Austria
Boat: Celestial, Stay'sl-Rigged Sloop, 48 ft
Posts: 1,164
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin3 View Post
[QUOTEThat was in, oh, 2007? Easy-peasy.]
Quote:
Yes but then came 9/11 ... (snip)
Ummm... I think you had a bit of an oops there in your understanding of my post. My sojourn down the USA west coast in 2007 was years after the terror incidents in the US of Sept 11, 2001.
__________________
"Being offended is not the same thing as being right." Dave Barry.
Note: Offense is always taken, never given.
When life hands you lemons..... add gin & tonic!
svmariane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 15:15   #253
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,387
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Evans,

My interest is purely practical. I expect to be sailing up the east coast of the US and back down the ICW in about 3 years time, during an RTW. Whilst I am aware of the notification requirements (to be in strict compliance, the boater is supposed to notify the USCG when he expects to leave harbor, which harbour he will be going to and what time he expects to arrive - and he must check in when he has arrived - all very difficult to do in a sail boat, not to mention it does take some of the pleasure out of cruising)

Such is our lot.

I have heard that most Coasties don't that very seriously, the checking in and out. I'm told that generally once you have checked into the US, you can sail about freely without all the bureaucratic horseshoe*t

Or have I heard wrong?

I'm extremely pleased to hear that I will not have to meet USCG requirements insofar as USCG approved gear.

Thank you
Hi Carsten,

I think this issue may have been mentioned briefly but in case it wasn't covered, you may have to deal with registration for your dinghy. While the USCG may be aware of comity with other countries regulations that will not be the case with most of the local authorities. Cruising the US east coast you might encounter a number of different agencies including state marine patrol, police or sheriff's department patrols for the city or county you're passing through plus various fish and game enforcement in different states.

From the experience of friends, other forum members and reports I have read almost universally they will want to see a separate registration for any dinghy or tender with an outboard. The good news is that in general this would be easy to do and very cheap. You might need a copy of a bill of sale or manufacturer's certificate of origin or any sort of official looking piece of paper but with that most states are just interested in getting their ounce of flesh (they don't even want a full pound). For example in FL might cost you a trip to the local county tax and registration office and USD$30-$40 plus painting or gluing numbers to the bow of the dink.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 15:48   #254
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: St. Johns, NF
Boat: 55 Frers Mahog
Posts: 61
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Some interesting comments. We too have been "boarded" by the USCG, even tho we are not in their "jurisdiction" - But they seem to think they own the ocean 2000 miles from US shores as well. We were bringing our 50 custom cat to the Bahamas to transfer ownership. We were nearly sideswiped - 150 miles north of the canal. They didn't ask to board us, they just slipped alongside and did so. It surprised my mate on deck and he went for his sidearm - because we had been in a previous situation the year before off Colombia we started carrying Colt Commanders.

After the surprise and everyone running for their weapons and turning on the floodlights - they finally identified themselves. They almost got shot ~ and so would we.

Being a foreign flagged vessel (Panama) we knew we would be boarded at sometime during our journey. After the bosun went thru our papers and we secured our weapons they let us go. No search - no inspection - just viewed our papers.

When we arrived in Nassau - we relayed to the Bahamaian authorities and they just shrugged it off. Flying back via MIA to PTY, we were pulled aside by HS-TSA and asked dozens of questions about our trip. Now, we have made this trip a few times, always the same route to the same destination and flying back. Bahamas authorities never bat an eye. On our last trip all the way to St. John's we just stayed out beyond the range of your CG boats.

Come on up to St John's if you want to see the best of Canada and the friendly boaters. Less regulation makes for friendly boating.
__________________
Capt. Abraham
Ghostrider III - 55 Frers Mahogany
ghostrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2013, 16:56   #255
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,432
Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

The USCG does not administer US cruising licenses, they are issued by and administered by CBP, hence a foreign vessel operating with such license does not contact the USCG. As far as notification when moving a foreign vessel that has been issued a CBP cruising license, that is only required when moving between CBP jurisdictions. The foreign vessel is free to move within a single jurisdiction without notification.
__________________

__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.