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Old 15-08-2007, 05:42   #61
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Political facts may have some relevance to the Forum; but beliefs, opinions, & philosophies can only be divisive.
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Old 15-08-2007, 11:02   #62
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Mudnut, the immediate cause of the "condition" of the former British Mandate, was the Ottoman Empire. FACT. They allied with the Germans during WW1 and as a result of that, "Palestine" and other large chunks of the mideast were legally taken by military force from the prior owner (the Ottoman Empire) and placed under "Allied" control. FACT.

Forget myths about what might have happened thousands of years ago. The settlers in the aftermath of WW1, who were indeed Zionists, bought their land legally from the legal owners--the winners of WW1. FACT.

And while migrants with no formal tribal lands and no formal titled lands may have had problems with this--they had those same problems for thousands of years. On the other hand, the settlers bought good legal title, by all law and tradition. And they settled among and with their neighbors, and turned empty desert into productive farms and towns. If you had driven down the Israeli/Jordan border in the 60s-70s you'd see the exact same land on both sides--except, one side was yellow and bare while the other side was green and farmed. FACT.

Displaced? Land stolen? Not quite, the settlers were laughed at because they were buying wasteland with no value. And somehow, making it bloom. FACT.

Complaints? Sure, I heard complaints. From my "aunt", who was home unarmed with three young kids and scared shitless while my "uncle" was manning his tank on the first morning of the 7-day war. At first light the Jordanians who worked on their collective farm snuck in from Jordan, ACROSS THE BORDER WITH A WAR GOING ON, KNOWING THEY COULD BE SHOT SIMPLY FOR BEING THERE, and they said "Please, we are farmers and the harvest has to come in now. If we do not harvest, we all lose the crop. We need to work." FACT.

That was not an isolated incident. That was Israel. No one except the PLO gave a damn about propaganda, the folks who lived there, and chose to stay there, weren't concerned about who the neighbors were. They were more interested in "Oh, now we have jobs and food!". It took the PLO fifty years of lies and propaganda to convince people like you that history neer happened, fine job they've done of it.

The Jihad that was declared by the Imam of Jerusalem, the highest holy Muslim leader in the land, on the day after the Brits granted Israel independence is still in effect. There is a formal call to drive all the Jews into the Sea. FACT.

The only problem is, we are a stubborn people. Those who survived the camps and the Nazis, are no longer so eager to simply turn around and march into boxcars--or the sea--just because some leader wishes it to be so. Years ago, Isreal was a split society. You could tell the survivors from the sabras (the native born Israeli jews, named for a "prickly pear" cactus) very easily. The sabras stand their ground, every time, on every point. They will not go into the sea.

Until the Jihad is called off, there is no alternative. No compromise. FACT. When someone says "My priest says I have to kill you now" there's not to be done, and that's why Israel has, by and large, hardened it's policies against the PLO and the alleged "Palestinians" year after year for fifty years. Palestine? Look at the old maps. The Israelis are Palestinians just as much as the PLO are. They bought and paid for the land, and worked their asses off to build it. And now, the PLO wishes them to simply abandon it and walk into the sea. STILL FACT.

Machiavellian politics, that's all. The Arabs have been good at it, as have so many other peoples and nations, that's how their rulers have always repressed their people. When Yassar Arafat died and billions were found in his secret Swiss bank accounts, did his people call him the thief that he was? No, they celebrated his talent at skimming billions--while HE was keeping them homeless paupers in the camps. FACT.

These are second and third generation "manipulees", who have been raised since birth to believe in lies by professionals. Who also preach a religion that says "DO AS I SAY WITHOUT QUESTION OR YOU'LL BURN IN HELLFIRE FOR ETERNITY." They have nothing to lose, because their own leaders keep the refugee camps running while diverting money--because it is good for thier politics. And, every one of their "brother" Arab nations refuses to take them in--FACT. Ask yourself why none of their brothers will take them in, despite the Islamic commandments for charity and aid.

Try reading the Koran, it is available in English. The more you read, the more you understand who and what these people are. Don't read it--and you'll never understand the problem. FACT, ALL AND AGAIN.

And if you've never read Machiavelli's "The Prince"....its a lot smaller and shorter than the Koran but a whole lot more enlightening, as to exactly what has been going on in the Middle East for thousands of years. Prince, Sultan, Imam, all the same, only the name changes. FACT TOO.
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Old 15-08-2007, 11:28   #63
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There are no saints in the middle east.

Etzel and others are also facts, as is the fact that its leaders/followers have generally ruled in Israel since 1948.

Broad generalizations about the region are hard to make, other than it has been and continues to be a volatile, dangerous area to be avoided by the prudent cruiser.
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Old 15-08-2007, 12:40   #64
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Perhaps I should have been clearer, regarding POLITICS.
I meant to say that (in my opinion*) LAWS & REGULATIONS have some relevance to the Forum - everything else, of a political nature, is unsolicited opinion, and has no place here.

* Given that I possess a “kill switch”, mine can be an significant opinion.
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Old 15-08-2007, 12:52   #65
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In a perhaps naive attempt to steer the conversation back to cruising, and with full knowledge that dropping the words Bumfuzzle and Pat and Ali into the mix might really start WWIII, I offer this snippet from their logs:

"...We had nice downwind sailing all day long and when night rolled around the wind died away completely and we continued on motoring through the night towards Israel. Israel has some strict security precautions in place and for us that meant that we were required to call them on the VHF once we were within 50 miles of their coast. We didn't make contact at 50 miles, or 40 miles, but around 35 out we started to hear back from them. Our connection was terrible though and we spent pretty much the entire morning trying to hear and understand each other. We know that our VHF doesn't work very well, never has, but we use it so rarely that we have never bothered to try and fix it. Besides, we've got a handheld VHF that usually works just fine, but it only works well over short distances."

For more on their adventures in Israel and Jordan last summer, go to:

bumfuzzle jun 2006

The pertinent section is from June 3 to June 18, 2006: Herzliya, Israel, which covers their arrival into Israel from the sea, as well as their land cruising in Israel and Jordan. Several great pictures there, as well.

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Old 15-08-2007, 13:17   #66
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Quote:
We know that our VHF doesn't work very well, never has,
I'm just not going to go there. But I am shaking my head in disbelief.
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Old 15-08-2007, 13:30   #67
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"But I am shaking my head in disbelief."
Wheels, why would that surprise you? Some time ago I had a discussion with a Motorola engineer about cell phone choices today, and how I really didn't care about "tiny" I wanted the same performance that the UltraClassic Brick used to get. I could hear him shaking his head over the phone, when he said "Yes, but all the market cares about it whether it is pretty and tiny. They don't care about performance, that just confuses them."

Hey, you know. Volts HURTS.[g]
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Old 15-08-2007, 18:32   #68
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Originally Posted by hellosailor
Forget myths about what might have happened thousands of years ago. The settlers in the aftermath of WW1, who were indeed Zionists, bought their land legally from the legal owners--the winners of WW1. FACT.

And while migrants with no formal tribal lands and no formal titled lands may have had problems with this--they had those same problems for thousands of years. On the other hand, the settlers bought good legal title, by all law and tradition. And they settled among and with their neighbors, and turned empty desert into productive farms and towns. If you had driven down the Israeli/Jordan border in the 60s-70s you'd see the exact same land on both sides--except, one side was yellow and bare while the other side was green and farmed. FACT.

Displaced? Land stolen? Not quite, the settlers were laughed at because they were buying wasteland with no value. And somehow, making it bloom. FACT.

<SNIP>

No one except the PLO gave a damn about propaganda

<SNIP>

The Israelis are Palestinians just as much as the PLO are. They bought and paid for the land, and worked their asses off to build it. And now, the PLO wishes them to simply abandon it and walk into the sea. STILL FACT.

For an alternative opinion on these statements I strongly recommend that everyone interested read Bayliss Thomas' book "How Israel was Won":

Amazon.com: How Israel Was Won: A Concise History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: Books: Baylis Thomas


For related background reading I also strongly suggest TE Lawrence's brilliant "Seven Pillars of Wisdom"

Amazon.com: Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph: Books: T.E. Lawrence


For a practical follow up, go to Israel and spend a few days driving around during the day and during the night picking up hitch hikers and talking to them. It only takes a few days to loop around the borders over the length of the country from Eilat to the Syrian and Lebanese borders in the Golan heights.
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