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Old 20-10-2010, 17:36   #76
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"My surveyors fees in 2005 for UK part1 was only 800 pounds plus"
Do the UK & Ireland require individual surveys of ALL vessels? Or is this boat a custom-built one-off where the dimensions and prior certifications aren't on file anywhere?
IIRC in the US, custom admeasurement is only required for "non-production" vessels that have been custom built.
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Old 20-10-2010, 18:54   #77
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I believe that the defining issue beyond the tax avoidance desire is where are you are going to be cruising. A South African client of mine purchased a documented US yacht in Mexico from a US citizen several years ago. He had formed a company in the Cayman Islands and after I had had the vessel removed from USCG documentation, I arranged for a Bureau Veritas surveyor to fly in to Mexico and complete the necessary survey and measurement for registration and flagging under Cayman Island sovereignty. It was all done in about 6 weeks with help from a local Notario Publico, phone, fax, DHL Delivery and help from a documentation agent in Florida. The owner could not keep the boat under US documentation as he was not a US citizen but planned on cruising US waters under a cruising permit. It was an easy solution and worked out well. We had to take the boat out of US waters once a year to renew the cruising permit and notify local Customs offices as we moved around the US coast. It wasn't much of a drama to execute or maintain our status. I operated the vessel under a USCG 100 ton Masters License and a Letter of Permission from the Cayman Island Company and was pretty meticulous about record keeping from foreign ports and contacts with Customs offices while in the US... Capt Phil
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Old 21-10-2010, 00:36   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"My surveyors fees in 2005 for UK part1 was only 800 pounds plus"
Do the UK & Ireland require individual surveys of ALL vessels? Or is this boat a custom-built one-off where the dimensions and prior certifications aren't on file anywhere?
IIRC in the US, custom admeasurement is only required for "non-production" vessels that have been custom built.
Most of the Wharrams are self build and although the plans never differ individual building styles do and people often deviate. There is a list of measurements available in the design book for those who build in accordance to the plans and I for one am sticking to them.

I hold 19 formal qualifications in Yacht & Boat Building so I like to think I have a fair idea of what I'm doing.
Now let me tell you a story about these bureaucratic morons.....

My Uncle owns and runs a charter boat out of Ireland and every year he has to employ a Surveyor from the Dept. of Transport to Survey the vessel before he gets his 12 passenger charter licence. Every year the legislation changes so there is a lot of work to undertake and money to be spent to meet the licensing requirements and of course Surveyors fees.

On one occasion the Surveyor arrived went through the boat wrote a list of changes as long as his arm and booked a re-visit once the work was complete. My Uncle dutifully spent the money did the work and paid his fees. After a longer than usual wait he chased up the office looking for the official report so he could purchase his licence and get the boat on the water. About a week later he got a phonecall from the Department stating "the delay is the Surveyor could neither tell nor remember, is your boat made from steel or fibreglass?"

When I was thinking on having my boat Irish registered I phoned the same office about my project, they wanted to send one of their guys on a few visits to the far east at about Ä7,000 a visit.
The law in Ireland is you have to abide by what the Surveyor says but you don't need any formal qualifications to become a Surveyor!!!
I wasted no time in contacting Lloyd's, I think after 25years of working on boats I have a fair idea and with a little extra training from them I could apply for my Surveyors cert, do the work myself and with a lot more confidence.
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Old 22-10-2010, 11:47   #79
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Point proven, a letter sent into Afloat Magazine

I copied and pasted this letter from the Ireland's Afloat Magazine website as I don't think I would be permitted to post the link:

As printed in Afloat:

South East Cruising School is no longer operating in Irish waters and in a letter to Afloat magazine, Principal Charlie Kavanagh, outlined his reasons for closure. The letter is reproduced below. The Marine Survey Office (MSO) was offered a right of reply but to date we have had no response.

Sir,
Having operated my business, South East Cruising School, under the auspices of the Irish Sailing Association for the last 14 years, I am very sorry to say that due to adverse circumstances, I now find that I can no longer operate in Irish waters.
In that time, I have assisted well over a 1,000 sailors to learn about our sport and improve their skills in a safe environment. I would like to take this opportunity to say thanks to each and every one for their custom and friendship over the years.
I recently submitted my boat for inspection under the Commercial Sail Passenger Boat Regulations and the Marine Survey Office (MSO) conducted an initial survey last May, which has completely stalled over a number of issues. As it is my opinion that these matters will not be resolved amicably, I have no choice but to suspend things for now and look at other options.
For those of you not familiar with the process, the Department of Transport's MSO has drawn up a set of Regulations that, in my opinion, do not help to promote safer sail training.
They have refused point blank to consider adopting the UK's MCA Code of Practice, administered by the RYA, the world leaders in most matters relating to sail training and from whom I hold my Yachtmaster Instructor qualification.
Five years ago, we had close to 15 schools offering cruiser sail training, but this is now down to five or six, and it's unlikely any more will get through this process without severe cost to themselves and the security of their boat(s).
Also, to the best of my knowledge, we have no powerboat school for those wishing to learn big boat power handling. Not content with banishing Asgard II to remain in her watery grave, cruiser sail training in Ireland is fast being sunk by the State too, as it reduces the number of outlets that teach safe practices to the general public wishing to go to sea in our island nation.
In 1997, I set out to operate my school under the watchful eye of Paddy Boyd of the ISA and subsequently Tony Wright, both of whom worked hard to aid and supervise us under the ISA Cruising Scheme. My thanks go to them and all in the ISA for their help over the years. It is with a heavy heart that I have to let go of my dream, having suffered the highs and lows over the years, but 2010 has been a nightmare, thanks to the MSO.
As an Irish taxpayer and committed community person, I - like many others in the commercial marine community - am disgusted at the State's attitude towards sailing and the sea.
Yours in Sailing,
Charlie Kavanagh,
ISA/RYA Yachtmaster Instructor


Can't say I blame him!
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Old 27-12-2011, 10:06   #80
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

Just looking to ignite this thread threat again, I have still not determined where is the best place to Register a yacht outside of the USA-
Ive went around to many websites asking this=
I have a currently US Documented Vessel sailing catamaran owned by a LLC- that I would like to register offshore from the USA- I sail in the Greek Islands mostly, so I donít want to pay Vat - but at some point would like to bring this vessel back to America, I want a country where the costs are low and if I ever wanted to change the country that it would be easy to do so, I understand I may need to start an LLC or Company
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Old 27-12-2011, 10:21   #81
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

Ram, shouldn't you start by asking the Greeks who is allowed to stay in their waters and under what terms?
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Old 29-12-2011, 05:09   #82
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Ram, shouldn't you start by asking the Greeks who is allowed to stay in their waters and under what terms?
I have that info=, I think most offices are closed I have sent about 50 of these inqures out with only 2 replys this week-
Greetings!
I am currently US citizen with a US Documented Vessel , Delaware-sailing catamaran that I would like to register offshore from the USA-
• Do I need marine insurance and what type of insurance to select?
• I occasionally take on a paying charter-but mostly private use
• I sail in the Greek Islands mostly, but also out of the EU
• I don’t want to pay Vat - would like to bring this vessel back to America, sometime in the future
• I want a country where the costs are low and if I ever wanted to change the country of register
• that it would be easy to do so
• What flag to choose and in which country to register your yacht?
• What is the cost to register the yacht and to maintain registration?
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Old 29-12-2011, 05:56   #83
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

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Originally Posted by Ram View Post
I have that info=, I think most offices are closed I have sent about 50 of these inqures out with only 2 replys this week-
Greetings! - not the best time of year!

I am currently US citizen with a US Documented Vessel, Delaware-sailing catamaran that I would like to register offshore from the USA.
Unless there is a good reason I can't see what re-registering anywhere else will bring you - if the boat continues to be based in Greece. I can put 2 + 2 together, but keep coming up with 5 .

VAT depends on where the boat is and for how long, not simply where registered (those days long gone)......if you search up posts from Goboatingnow the answers to most of what you seek will have been provided (many times!).

On your wish list I would also add an ability to sell to other nationalities / non-US residents - even if they later want to re-register to own country.
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Old 29-12-2011, 06:24   #84
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pirate Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Unless there is a good reason I can't see what re-registering anywhere else will bring you - if the boat continues to be based in Greece. I can put 2 + 2 together, but keep coming up with 5 .

VAT depends on where the boat is and for how long, not simply where registered (those days long gone)......if you search up posts from Goboatingnow the answers to most of what you seek will have been provided (many times!).

On your wish list I would also add an ability to sell to other nationalities / non-US residents - even if they later want to re-register to own country.
Wot he sed............... unless your comfortable flying under the Radar....
Most are not...
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Old 29-12-2011, 06:49   #85
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

i think you may have problems bringing it into the us,and keeping its offshore status (ie tax free),since you are a us citizen,yhough best checked from that end.

a gibraltar registration is probably the easiest,and any change of ownership easily accompished,and no language difficulties and can be done online.
insurance apart from 3rd party is normally not a prerequisite,unless a outstanding marine mortgage in place.

with vat the normal 18month tip applies to any non eu resident,and a trip to turkey will restart the clock.

this company will do everything,but there are many more like it,though cant see the point if you are going to have to pay tax on the vessel in the states any way.
http://formacogibraltar.com/gibralta...istration.html
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:40   #86
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

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i think you may have problems bringing it into the us,and keeping its offshore status (ie tax free),since you are a us citizen,yhough best checked from that end.

a gibraltar registration is probably the easiest,and any change of ownership easily accompished,and no language difficulties and can be done online.
insurance apart from 3rd party is normally not a prerequisite,unless a outstanding marine mortgage in place.

with vat the normal 18month tip applies to any non eu resident,and a trip to turkey will restart the clock.

this company will do everything,but there are many more like it,though cant see the point if you are going to have to pay tax on the vessel in the states any way.
Gibraltar Companies, Trusts, Yacht Registration, Residency, Offshore
Have you used this outfit?
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:51   #87
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

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Have you used this outfit?
no i'm vat paid ,so on the ssr that costs £50 every 5 years.

though these are generally reputable holding companys that will do the paper work for a fee.
they are generally much of a muchness!,about £500- 800 to set up and £ 2-300 a year for directors fee's

will pm you if you need a contact in gib
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:18   #88
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

I was curious about one thing regarding boat registration. I was looking in magazines of boats with the Marshall Islands flag. I was looking up the MI registration info and saw that it can be done for boats 12 meters in length or more. I found a site that there was an office in Ft. Lauderdale that can handle it. One thing I'm not quite sure on is what kind of benefits it might have to get an MI registration as opposed to US or anywhere else. This is the site that I found some info. IRI Maybe it'll help someone.
Anyone around here register this way?
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:17   #89
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

pm sent!
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:55   #90
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Re: Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

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pm sent!
Thanks Atoll!!
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