Anybody Fight CA over Hailing Port/Tax BS?

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

We have all seen how well that "Hope and Change" thing worked out...Don't bring "Hope" with you into a Tax Court...you had better bring your Tax Attorney.

LOL the actual problem is the A-holes don't take you to court

They send you to collection and then expect you to prove you are innocent

I'll be more than happy to go to tax court and bring 'facts' because the simple fact is they have no standing to be bothering me with this whatsoever

[BandB]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Ahhh...the Famous word "Nexus"

But WA State isn't any better amigo. They tried to get us to charge and collect the WA State sales tax on orders we ship to WA...ha ha ha ...we have no offices, etc in WA...but since we do the Seattle Boat show once a year for 10 days...well they say that is a Nexus! Sorry WA...good try...our attorney kicked their ass on that one and Yes it felt good...but it did cost me $4500 in attorney fees!

Well, the boat we're on at the moment was built in Washington. We're Florida residents and so the builder has the following file supporting them not charging Washington tax:

An exemption certificate

The cruising plan showing the date the boat will leave Washington. When we have completed all our Washington cruising we will provide an affidavit to the builder with the exact dates.

Copy of our temporary US documentation

Copy of our Florida registration and proof of payment of Florida use tax.


We will be spending a good bit of time in California on our slow trip home, but compared to Washington, they are simple.

Our situation is complicated as we're Florida residents and the boat will be kept in Florida, so we have it registered that and have paid the use tax there, even though the boat won't reach Florida for months. We will have a complete file on board for check by any state during that process.

The US is complicated as each state is much like countries are elsewhere. They each have their own rules for sales tax, property tax, and registration or titling.

Picture this as a scenario for one year. Now I'm not claiming people would comply but the laws require this. Boat owner lives in FL. Boat is registered in FL. On January 15, they go to Georgia, stay until March 31. On March 15 required to transfer registration to Georgia. On April 1 to SC where they stay until July 15. On June 30, required to transfer registration to SC. They go to NE on July 16 and stay until October 31. On October 15 required to register in NC. On November 1 they head back toward Florida. They arrive on November 10 and transfer their registration back to Florida.

[hellosailor]

It will be interesting to see if you can "unring the bell" on this. When you say you put "Hollywood" as the hailing port, one might rashly assume you put "Hollywood, CA" since a state is required. There are other Hollywoods.

But once you legally declare the boat to have a locus in California, it should be no surprise that California takes you on your word about that. Barring papal dispensation, you just might have to pay tax this year and "transfer" the boat out to end that in an orderly fashion. Or, explain to the USCG that you, ah, lied on the documentation papers. "Lied" being another four-letter acronym for "jest" and "joke" in Federalese.

Take the fifth, pay the man, beg the Pope for dispensation. Tax men are not known, required, or encouraged, to have any sense of humor.

[captain58sailin]

Kewl! I found welding in the rain can be shocking if you put your non - stinger hand on the wet steel, and strike an arc, since then I have a "no welding in the rain" contract. Have fun with it. I know I can get up to all kinds of things left to my own devices.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Well, this thread has a longer life span than I would have expected. Straining at gnats and swallowing camels. If you would have expended 1/3 of the energy resolving this issue with CA as has been expended here on this thread (including my posts), the thing would have already been laid to rest. Render unto Ceasar what is Caesar's. Yes I get the whole "it's the principle thing." I personally have too much to do and too little time to do it in, to spend my time fighting city hall, but hey, it's your life, you can choose how you spend the unknown quantity of it left, on a pissing contest with some govt. drone that could care less one way or the other. Peace Brother, I wish you well on your quest. I think, I'll go read Don Quixote in the original spanish version.

Well, I feel he is doing the right thing, fighting for principle.

If everyone just went along for the sake of expediency or chose the path of least resistance, just think where we'd be now. Having received equally ridiculous correspondence from the CA DMV while living in HI, I know exactly how he feels, and I wrote them an extremely sarcastic, in-your-face letter threatening to forward their extortion demands to the HI DMV and HI AGs office, which I did. They never bothered me again.

Do I think the caustic letter changed their policy? Of course not. Did the minion who opened it and read it feel embarrassed about working for a bureaucracy full of meatheaded puppets? I certainly hope so, and that made it worth the effort.

I want the clown from the CA BOE to prove he really is from the BOE and not a Nigerian scammer by holding today's paper in one hand and a 5 lb mullet in the other hand (a dead one would be easier to handle) and having a coworker snap a pic, at his desk. Then I want the pic posted here on this website. Why do I think I have the right to demand this? Simple. I help pay the maroon's salary. THAT's why. That gives me more right than they have demanding sales tax on a vessel sold in WA.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

It will be interesting to see if you can "unring the bell" on this. When you say you put "Hollywood" as the hailing port, one might rashly assume you put "Hollywood, CA" since a state is required. There are other Hollywoods.

But once you legally declare the boat to have a locus in California, it should be no surprise that California takes you on your word about that. Barring papal dispensation, you just might have to pay tax this year and "transfer" the boat out to end that in an orderly fashion. Or, explain to the USCG that you, ah, lied on the documentation papers. "Lied" being another four-letter acronym for "jest" and "joke" in Federalese.

Take the fifth, pay the man, beg the Pope for dispensation. Tax men are not known, required, or encouraged, to have any sense of humor.

You must be confused.

There is no correlation between hailing port and sales tax. None whatsoever.

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

You must be confused.

There is no correlation between hailing port and sales tax. None whatsoever.

And I didn't "lie"

There is no requirement that hailing port be related to the owner; or the boat; or a harbor. The coast guard clearly states it's used to differentiate between boats of the same name. Like I said hollywood doesn't even have a Marina or major body of water in it.

Coast guard asks you to put something on that line; and I did - period and it will very likely get changed again at some point when my mood changes before I actually repaint the hull to me the name is set in stone because I like "Oceana" and it's also welded onto the transom in huge block letters; but the hailing port is temporary and frankly irrelevant at least until she goes back in the water - heck at this point she doesn't even have her official number properly mounted on her.

I put Hollywood CA in the USCG paperwork to associate this boat with it's famous TV & Movie star PO; the fact that Walt and Roy Disney have sailed on her and my own personal sentimental ties and friends in Socal - when cruising I'd rather talk to people about LA than Seattle simple as that

in fact I may make it "Disneyland, CA" or maybe even "Magic Kingdom, CA" if I can get away with that (honestly just thought of that right now and I like it a lot) since Zorro was a disney production and I have pictures of Guy Williams sailing her with a mickey mouse flag flying proudly (which I also plan to do)

Anybody wanna take a bet now that if I do that this entire process starts all over again?

[socaldmax]

xymotic, I think you should drag this out and get them to send you all kinds of ludicrous demand letters and evidence of extortion.

Then go to the worldwide news agencies and blow this whole thing wide open. If there is one thing that we can count on top bureaucrats to consistently do: (besides blindly follow idiotic procedures denying any shred of common sense) and that is back down at full speed when faced with a very public shaming. When the better part of the thinking populace is openly pointing and laughing at them, they back down, just like the bullies that they are.

I'm sure it's not going to turn into an armed confrontation like the Cliven Bundy/BLM debacle, but it does show that even armed federal goons will blink hard when faced with people armed with backbones and guns.

I was extremely angered to see that Amazon knuckled under to CA's sales tax demands (Amazon had no nexus in CA) but it was a choice of financial expediency. CA threatened to cost them millions in legal and court fees and they bowed down in exchange for future expansion and warehouses in CA. Both CA and NY are far exceeding their tax collecting powers, but no private citizen has the power to fight them in court.

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

That gives me more right than they have demanding $5000 sales tax on a vessel sold in WA for $6000.

fixt

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by xymotic

I HOPE you are right


In reality the Tax collector uses everything that can remotely/possibly be spun in their favor while simultaneously disregarding what you ACTUALLY TELL THEM despite it being obviously true and after forcing you to have sworn to it under penalty of perjury.

While courts do expect tax collectors to use the best evidence they also will think it is reasonable for a tax collector to contact a boat owner who says his home port is in their state by painting it on their boat and telling the USCG the same thing and send the owner a bill. There is probable cause to suspect the boat is some how related to that state.

If the boat owner is told by the tax collector to send documentation to back up a claim the boat is not associated with the tax collector's state the courts will expect the boat owner to do that. If the case goes to court it is unlikely the boat owner will be liable for any tax, but I doubt the court would award any damages, even attorney's fees.

The courts have way too much to do to put up with someone trying to make a point.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by tomfl

If the boat owner is told by the tax collector to send documentation to back up a claim the boat is not associated with the tax collector's state the courts will expect the boat owner to do that.

IIRC, he said, a number of times, that he did just that. A couple of times.

I've done a 180 on this one.

GO, GO, GO...

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by tomfl

While courts do expect tax collectors to use the best evidence they also will think it is reasonable for a tax collector to contact a boat owner who says his home port is in their state by painting it on their boat and telling the USCG the same thing and send the owner a bill. There is probable cause to suspect the boat is some how related to that state.

If the boat owner is told by the tax collector to send documentation to back up a claim the boat is not associated with the tax collector's state the courts will expect the boat owner to do that. If the case goes to court it is unlikely the boat owner will be liable for any tax, but I doubt the court would award any damages, even attorney's fees.

The courts have way too much to do to put up with someone trying to make a point.

All true (cept it's not painted on the hull) and having future plans to move a boat south does not a tax liability make

If they aren't confident they will win and they are right they have no business asking in the first place IMO - But I also admit I'm the weird one in MOST of these situations

OTOH it is absolutely a fishing expedition on their part too.

They asked; I answered
They just didn't like the answer and told me I was then "REQUIRED" to prove the boat was not in CA

That's when the trouble started; they didn't "ask" me to back up a "claim" they sent me a DEMAND NOTICE saying I was caught breaking the law and I had 10 days to prove I was not "or else" their assessment would "become permanent"

AND the only way to 'prove" I didn't owe the tax was to certify that the vessel is used for commercial fishing

Not " hey we've got some questions to ask you"

That's the actual issue at hand

Then I answered again; in writing and their reply was to send me a bill and 'propose' that unless I immediately paid them $5000 for a $6000 boat and if I didn't immediately 'appeal' that decision it would be turned over to collection and subject to seizure liens etc - but also subject to a bunch of appeals hurdles that they themselves also dictated

At which point my position is: "Suck it"

Which seems completely reasonable to me
I'm not going to "appeal" a decision they have no authority to make in the first place

If THEY want to go to a proper court or file a lien I will absolutely fight them; and I'll win because I'm right

MEANWHILE they are moving ahead like a stampeding buffalo to towards a cliff knowing full well they are gonna lose in the end; but the guy says "well nothing I can do this is the direction we all run" Yeah; well he could just stop! it's simple

The guy today was actually pretty reasonable; he "asked" If he could call the marina and I answered his question as best I could; that should have been the end of this two years ago I have no problem if they are "trying" to figure out if there is a liability but I do absolutely take issue with them simply demanding (crazy amounts of) money from me "right now" "or else"

[IdoraKeeper]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I know this is a joke, but don't even think of it. They will seize everything you own.
They couldn't convict Al Capone as there wasn't enough evidence against him, so they imprisoned him for tax invasion, don't screw with the tax man

Okay Pilot, I will behave. No more tax jokes. Besides, what we had to pay this year wasn't funny at all.

[BandB]

Epithet on a tombstone:

"I had the right of way."

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Well, I feel he is doing the right thing, fighting for principle.

If everyone just went along for the sake of expediency or chose the path of least resistance, just think where we'd be now. Having received equally ridiculous correspondence from the CA DMV while living in HI, I know exactly how he feels, and I wrote them an extremely sarcastic, in-your-face letter threatening to forward their extortion demands to the HI DMV and HI AGs office, which I did. They never bothered me again.

Do I think the caustic letter changed their policy? Of course not. Did the minion who opened it and read it feel embarrassed about working for a bureaucracy full of meatheaded puppets? I certainly hope so, and that made it worth the effort.

I want the clown from the CA BOE to prove he really is from the BOE and not a Nigerian scammer by holding today's paper in one hand and a 5 lb mullet in the other hand (a dead one would be easier to handle) and having a coworker snap a pic, at his desk. Then I want the pic posted here on this website. Why do I think I have the right to demand this? Simple. I help pay the maroon's salary. THAT's why. That gives me more right than they have demanding sales tax on a vessel sold in WA.

Interestingly, if you research all of mankind on why democracies fail, the #1 reason is apathy. IMO, laying down and taking a bureaucrat's intimidation because its the easiest path is a form of apathy.

The only way to change CA bureaucratic behavior is to have a court tell them to stop. CA bureaucrats know that and take advantage of it.