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Old 23-02-2010, 15:10   #121
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Exactly, and waters that fall outside both high seas (International waters) and waters where the US have jurisdiction (US territorial waters) are all territorial waters of nations other than the US. So this only proves that the USCG is not allowed into territorial waters of other nations except when permission by that nation has been granted. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend?

The question is in which waters (radius around US territories) the USCG actually operates. I might be all wrong here but I don't think they will be around Thailand for example.
Also, when a DEA agent is allowed to carry a gun and make arrests in Thailand, this only means that he is probably permitted to do this on ships moored somewhere in Thailand, but it certainly doesn't mean that the USCG is allowed to board boats in Thai waters.

Also, that DEA agent someone met in a bar would not announce what he was and what his authority in Thailand includes, so it probably was a cruiser; these guys are known to present themselves as Rock Stars, Gigolo's or Secret Agents on a regular basis ;-)

Once in International waters, it's basically the biggest gun that determines what's allowed or not. The agreements among nations concerning International waters are not even good enough to capture pirates like the ones who operate in International waters with their base in Somalia. The USCG is very absent there, no need to protect US citizens sailing through that area. The Dutch navy arrested a bunch and handled them like a hot potato because laws and mandates are unclear.

About police officers being just people: I have a problem with that, because they should be a special group of people, selected on many qualities that set them apart from the average person, incl. emotional stability, authoritive but polite stance, handling others with respect etc. For me, this is very different from a ghetto gang member. I find it very sad when I see examples where for whatever reason these standards are lowered and I see officers act like the average low-IQ street fighter and think we should not accept that at all. When everyone accepts that, it becomes the standard and even good decent people must start to fear law enforcement.

I don't mind to be boarded when that happens in a decent way. It doesn't hurt if a law enforcement officer requests permission to come aboard even when he can board without permission. We have been boarded multiple times, both at anchor and while underway and they always asked and I always got a good feeling about it after-wards.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 23-02-2010, 16:00   #122
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The question is in which waters (radius around US territories) the USCG actually operates. I might be all wrong here but I don't think they will be around Thailand for example.
.
not so fast nick. See USCG: Pacific Area Overview
The area of responsibility of PACAREA is 74 million square miles ranging from South America, north to the Arctic Circle and west to the Far East.

Thailand is in the Fat East. The USCG does have ships out there on patrol.
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Old 23-02-2010, 16:01   #123
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The question is in which waters (radius around US territories) the USCG actually operates. I might be all wrong here but I don't think they will be around Thailand for example.
USCG actually sends boats out to some pretty far flung places and have probably been in the same area as any major US Navy "deployment" in modern history (i.e. Vietnam, Iraq, etc.).

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Also, when a DEA agent is allowed to carry a gun and make arrests in Thailand, this only means that he is probably permitted to do this on ships moored somewhere in Thailand, but it certainly doesn't mean that the USCG is allowed to board boats in Thai waters.

Also, that DEA agent someone met in a bar would not announce what he was and what his authority in Thailand includes, so it probably was a cruiser; these guys are known to present themselves as Rock Stars, Gigolo's or Secret Agents on a regular basis ;-)
I wasn't cruising, sailing, or anywhere near the water at the time, I was visiting my wife (then fiance) and was introduced to a friend of a friend. He was doing "liason" work from the US Embassy in Burma and was in Bangkok to get the hell out of Burma for the weekend (as he put it). His job was following the Burmese police around looking for poppy fields and writing reports, nothing to do with boarding boats, just an example of the authority that countries can give each others law enforcement that many people might not be commonly aware of. And he also stated that in Burma, no gun and no arresting anyone, if they found him with a gun he'd be the one arrested.

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About police officers being just people: I have a problem with that, because they should be a special group of people, selected on many qualities that set them apart from the average person, incl. emotional stability, authoritive but polite stance, handling others with respect etc. For me, this is very different from a ghetto gang member. I find it very sad when I see examples where for whatever reason these standards are lowered and I see officers act like the average low-IQ street fighter and think we should not accept that at all. When everyone accepts that, it becomes the standard and even good decent people must start to fear law enforcement.
Many people do have problems with that, including politicians and police chiefs, and many police agencies do try and hire better people (doesn't everyone). And while I mostly agree with you, reality persists and people are imperfect.
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Old 23-02-2010, 17:28   #124
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This is getting as bad as a gun thread.
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Old 23-02-2010, 17:37   #125
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I just wanted to know where he is. I am getting ready to head that way. I thought it strange he covered the location on the notice on his blog. Is he afraid of gawkers?
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Old 23-02-2010, 18:16   #126
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Has anyone heard of any up dates to his problem, would be interesting to hear something, seeing some time has passed, and one would thing the officer would be back to check on things.
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Old 23-02-2010, 20:42   #127
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not so fast nick. See USCG: Pacific Area Overview
The area of responsibility of PACAREA is 74 million square miles ranging from South America, north to the Arctic Circle and west to the Far East.Thailand is in the Fat East. The USCG does have ships out there on patrol.
Yes, that is the Pacific ocean. But Thailand is a bit further on. There's a whole bunch of US waters in the Pacific, like Hawaii, Marshall islands, Samoa and many more probably. They (Pacific division) will also perform or coordinate rescue missions all over the Pacific. With the US at war in Iraq and Afghanistan I can even see one of their flagships patrolling the Persian Gulf like they write on the website, but I think that it's in a supportive role like search and rescue for navy and other US or coalition forces engaged in combat operations.

Look, I've read about the USCG a lot and I like them but just look at their name" COAST guard. Under normal peace time operations, they do not fall under the US Navy and have their missions defined pretty well on their website. It does not include boarding any sailboats in Thailand. In fact, this is what they state what they do outside of US coastal waters:

(USCG: Missions - National Defense)
Quote:
Outside of U.S. coastal waters, the Coast Guard assists foreign naval and maritime forces through training and joint operations. Many of the world’s maritime nations have forces that operate principally in the littoral seas and conduct missions that resemble those of the Coast Guard. And, because it has such a varied mix of assets and missions, the Coast Guard is a powerful role model that is in ever-increasing demand abroad. The service’s close working relations with these nations not only improve mutual cooperation during specific joint operations in which the Coast Guard is involved but also support U.S. diplomatic efforts in general: promoting democracy, economic prosperity, and trust between nations.
and I think that's pretty much in line with what I wrote before.

Edit: Chief Engineer: yes, this is wondering too far OT.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 23-02-2010, 20:57   #128
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The US has treaty agreements with other nations (as do many nations) which provide that a USCG vessel may carry a representative of a foreign government on board, in order to operate under the aegis of that government within their waters and on their flagged vessels.

So you could be flying a French flag in French waters, and if a USCG vessel with French personnel on board ordered you to heave to and be boarded...The odds are it would be perfectly legal because it would be a boarding under FRENCH authority.

The major question these days would be how the USCG is operating. They were a dual-purpose agency, an administrative agency and part of the DOT except in time of war. They are now a part of DHS--again, except in time of war--and during a war they are part of DoD and a military arm. Administrative agencies and military forces have very different rights and powers, but that gets all the more confused because so many folks in the US government keep saying "we are at war". And according to our Constitution, we are not at war until and unless Congress signs a formal declaration of war. Something that I don't think they've done since shortly after Pearl Harbor.

They all tend to throw hissy fits if you ask for particulars about that little legality.

A further complication is that military forces were barred from being used for domestic law enforcement purposes in the US since after the Civil War by what is generally called the Posse Comitatus Act. Except, that was substantially repealed last year when a quiet earmark in the Defense Appropriations Bill gave the President the exclusive right to declare a domestic emergency, and send in military forces to deal with it.

Bottom line, is that AlQeada lost the attack (only 10% of the potential death toll) but won the war, they've shut down so many American freedoms that they've "bombed" US back to the Stone Age, in civil liberty terms.
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Old 23-02-2010, 22:31   #129
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Nick,

I never meant to imply that the US Coast Guard was patrolling off Thailand and boarding boats. To the best of my knowledge, they aren't. They might have during the war in Vietnam, during which they did patrol off the coast of Vietnam and probably boarding anything they wanted to.

I was only pointing out that, depending on existing treaties with foreign nations, they might very well be allowed to board whatever in that nations territory. I don't know if they have such treaties with Thailand but I would suspect they do if they are allowing other US law enforcement officers to arrest their own citizens. I'm sure some of the smaller nations much closer to the US do have treaties allowing this, and Coast Guard boats actively operating in the area. If these treaty arrangements did exist, then they could legally board your vessel.

On the high seas, outside the territorial waters of the US or another country that's granted these authorities via treaty, if you are on a vessel without US registration I don't think they are allowed to board.

And I don't think there mission in zones like Iraq is for search and rescue. It's probably more for customs / border protection (stopping arms smuggling from Iran for instance).
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Old 24-02-2010, 14:32   #130
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Silly me, I thought this thread was anout a sailor in Miami...
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Old 24-02-2010, 14:56   #131
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Silly me, I thought this thread was anout a sailor in Miami...
And it is, UD. Guys, if there's a need to discuss the "who can board my vessel" topic (again), please start a thread on that subject and move this discussion over there. This thread is specifically about one particular cruiser's dilemma at one anchorage in the Miami area, so let's try to keep the discussion centered on that subject. Thank you for your cooperation.

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Old 24-02-2010, 15:08   #132
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Has anyone heard of any up dates to his problem, would be interesting to hear something, seeing some time has passed, and one would thing the officer would be back to check on things.

On the orginal posting for what has become a mess is a link. I've been checking that for update, but as of a few minutes ago there isn't any.

And for all the sea lawyers on this thread, the officers name and phone number is shown. Give him a call with all your legal stuff and explain things to him and then let us know as that would be a great posting!
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Old 24-02-2010, 15:27   #133
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On the orginal posting for what has become a mess is a link. I've been checking that for update, but as of a few minutes ago there isn't any.

And for all the sea lawyers on this thread, the officers name and phone number is shown. Give him a call with all your legal stuff and explain things to him and then let us know as that would be a great posting!
Please don't call. I will be anchoring in the Miami area in the very near future and do not want to meet this Miami Dade PD officer after 20 bulletin board lawyers have advised him of the statutes. Seriously.

I have anchored a few different places in Miami and only had the PD return my wave. Of course I've never stayed any one place more than a week or so.

I guess I'd agree with an earlier poster that it is probably an effort to ascertain whether anyone is aboard.
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Old 25-02-2010, 22:03   #134
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Anyone claiming that ignoring such a legal summons, writ or order (in this instance a 30 day notice) because it "isn't signed" or some other 'technicality' hasn't spent much time watching the workings of an actual courtroom (and judge).

How To Get The Proverbial Book Thrown At You:
1) Stand up in front of a judge and tell him that you felt you could ignore the court order because the officer didn't sign it, and therefore you felt it was just a piece of worthless paper.

How To Not Get The Proverbial Book Thrown At You:
1) Move the boat first, and then request the hearing within 10 days in front of the court, and politely ask the court (judge) to explain to you how the recently passed Florida law pertains to moorings in the Miami/Dade area. In other words, ask the court to explain the law to you so that you are better able to abide by it in the future.
Oh, and wear a tie and a jacket, even if you need to go down to Goodwill and buy one.
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Old 25-02-2010, 22:20   #135
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Not Sure...You have spent too much time in a court room......nice post by the way
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