Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-01-2014, 03:44   #46
cruiser

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 398
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

I don't get the resistance to fixing the old steaming light, what if it's only a bulb ? If it's not a bulb, steaming lights are much cheaper than a quality anchor light. The talk of adding switches to turn lights on and off in this new system is ridiculous. Is this all really to avoid a trip up the mast and or save a few bucks? All this talk about the legality of it overlooks the fact it's just dumb to not fix the old light. Hella makes a nice non LED steaming light with a down facing deck light for $89. Problem solved.
__________________

__________________
Horror Hotel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 07:31   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
I don't understand why the rules for powered vessels don't apply to a sailboat under power. They do when it comes to the rules of the road, and I've been taught that they do for lighting as well. Please show me otherwise. If I'm wrong I would love to correct that, but so far I'm not convinced.
The rules for power-driven vessels do apply to sailboats under power. My concern is is that all round light (replacing both the stern light and masthead light) at the top of the mast does not meet rule 21 (c). Fig 2 shows a short pole mounted all-round which makes for a pretty iffy masthead light on a sailboat.

Similar image to Fig 2.

This areenagement on a Catalina 30 reallt does not adhere to 23(c) iii

Quote:
[(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the masthead light or the all-round white light.]
Quote:
(c) "Sternlight" means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of the vessel.
An interpretation of 21(c)

Quote:
The sternlight is pointed directly aft and is normally mounted right on the very stern, often on the centerline. It does not have to be on the centerline and it does not have to be at the stern, but "as nearly as practicable" at the stern. It is not unusual for it to be quite some distance from the stern on vessels where the stern is perhaps low and exposed to rough use, as on a stern trawler or an offshore oil-platform supply vessel.
Navigation Rules Online

A Catalina 30 is not a stern trawler or an offshore supply vessel. It is practicable to mount the stern light on the stern.
__________________

__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 11:27   #48
Moderator
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,888
Images: 4
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Jackdale, thanks for the amplification. I think that you and I will have to disagree on the interpretations of the regulations in this particular case.

And of course I would rather see the OP fix the steaming light.
__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 13:07   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: So Cal
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 943
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Hey - My steaming light is out too - probably just a bulb. I don't go out almost ever at night, and it's on the list to fix (soon as I find a bosun's chair). I'm not advocating for not fixing it.

But if it's the wiring on a C30, it's a PITA to fix as wires in the mast are hard to get to, and from the mast inside they're embedded inside the deck - nearly impossible to fix. Would need to run new wires, and that's alot of fun - likely have to drop the mast to do it - so that $80 light fixture just became a $600 fix. (Well, for me at least)

Therefore, knowing a "pretty close" backup is good - i.e. run the r/g, kill the sternlight, turn on the anchor light, and power away.

Does _anybody_ show the right dayshape? I can't recall ever seeing one, even on a dredge.
__________________
jeepbluetj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 13:44   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepbluetj View Post
Does _anybody_ show the right dayshape? I can't recall ever seeing one, even on a dredge.

Which day shape? Technically (International rules) as a sailing vessel you need only two:

Ball - anchoring during the day.
Inverted cone - motorsailing

I have been on one boat that had them.

I have seen day shapes:

Tug towing - all the time
Vessel anchored - just the big ones, recreational and commercial
RAM - on a cable layer
Diving - often
RAM (dredger) - In Jolly Harbour, Antigua
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 13:51   #51
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Jackdale, thanks for the amplification. I think that you and I will have to disagree on the interpretations of the regulations in this particular case.
About the firm answer would be a court case after an incident or a CG inspection.

You could call the CG and ask them. I have done that in the past on the question of whether or not the transmission has to be engaged on a sailboat with the engine running in order to be considered a power-driven vessel. (The answer yes. In neutral it is still a sailing vessel.)

I have thought about a PM to a designer for his interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post

And of course I would rather see the OP fix the steaming light.
Likewise.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 15:30   #52
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,471
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Which day shape? Technically (International rules) as a sailing vessel you need only two:

Ball - anchoring during the day.
Inverted cone - motorsailing

I have been on one boat that had them.

I have seen day shapes:

Tug towing - all the time
Vessel anchored - just the big ones, recreational and commercial
RAM - on a cable layer
Diving - often
RAM (dredger) - In Jolly Harbour, Antigua
FWIW, we use the anchor ball routinely. No big deal to acquire or use (2 dollar plastic toy ball spray painted black, webbing sling, long tether w/ carabiner on the bottom, spinny topping lift to hoist). There are enough instances of anchored boats being struck to make it worth my while to be legally marked, for it gives one the high moral ground in any legal action that could ensue (little joke, eh?). We see a few other yachts displaying the black ball here in Oz, but not many.

The motorsailing cone... well, in all my years of sailing I have yet to see a recreational boat flying one, and I blush to admit, we don't even own one. However, the consequences of not displaying are pretty innocuous: you are granted a "right of way" that you do not deserve. While this is not cricket, it is unlikely to have any serious consequences. The rule is clearly not enforced by any authorities in places where I have sailed. I have heard that in parts of the EU this may not be so true, but no personal knowledge.

My own pet peeve is the many diving and fishing vessels which display their diver down and engaged in fishing shapes/flags/lights 24/7, no matter what they are doing. Tends to lessen their impact...

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 15:56   #53
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
As an aside, rule 20(b) is probably the most often broken of them all. Fishing vessels and cruise ships very frequently have so many and such bright "other" lights as to completely overwhelm the nav lights.
The navigation lights are plain to see on this lit-up cruise ship.

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 19:45   #54
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,471
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
The navigation lights are plain to see on this lit-up cruise ship.

Mark, is that supposed to be sarcastic? From the photo, I can't identify the red sidelight for sure, and there are so many white lights forward that identifying the forward white running light is uncertain. That latter might be easier from a position forward of her beam a bit... i dunno.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 21:51   #55
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
The navigation lights are plain to see on this lit-up cruise ship.
Anyone who cannot identify a cruise ship probably should not be on the water in daylight, let alone night.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 22:12   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 449
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Oh ... there was a similar discussion a month ago: 2 Sets of Side Lights..... Okay, or not so Much? . Here is a cheat-sheet/picture I posted to clarify things for me. This might be of help here too ...

__________________
Richard_W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2014, 22:31   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Seattle
Boat: Work: Ships/Tugs Play: Grand Banks 36
Posts: 76
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The rules for power-driven vessels do apply to sailboats under power. My concern is is that all round light (replacing both the stern light and masthead light) at the top of the mast does not meet rule 21 (c). Fig 2 shows a short pole mounted all-round which makes for a pretty iffy masthead light on a sailboat.

Similar image to Fig 2.

This areenagement on a Catalina 30 reallt does not adhere to 23(c) iii





An interpretation of 21(c)



Navigation Rules Online

A Catalina 30 is not a stern trawler or an offshore supply vessel. It is practicable to mount the stern light on the stern.
I think what you're missing is that Rule 23 says (emphasis mine):

(c | d) (i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights.

The key phrase there is "in lieu of". As soon as the strict requirement for a proper stern light is relieved, that definition of a stern light is not relevant and the requirement for stern light placement is not applicable. Hence, the all-round light must only meet the requirements of any other all-round light which Rule 21 defines as:

(e) "All-round light" means a light showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 360 degrees.
__________________
Watermann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2014, 08:21   #58
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Mark, is that supposed to be sarcastic? From the photo, I can't identify the red sidelight for sure, and there are so many white lights forward that identifying the forward white running light is uncertain.
Those lights were easy to recognize when I saw the ship in person. Enlarging the picture may help you.
__________________

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, head, mast

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.