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Old 13-01-2014, 21:08   #31
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I respectfully disagree. I have already stated my reasons.
And I respectfully request that you re-state your reasons so I can understand them. You have at least twice mentioned the rules regarding sternlights, but this all-round light is not a sternlight. Or was there some other reason?

I am curious because I have a 27-ft power boat with all-round white and red/green sidelights (and no sternlight). When I bought it I was surprised to find it configured like this (my sailboat is longer than 12 meters so has the full light complement), but then satisfied myself that this was legal after consulting the regulations and the boat's builder.

[edited to add:] By the way, on the 27-footer this all-round white light also serves as my anchor light.
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Old 13-01-2014, 21:33   #32
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
And I respectfully request that you re-state your reasons so I can understand them. You have at least twice mentioned the rules regarding sternlights, but this all-round light is not a sternlight. Or was there some other reason?
Rule 21 (c)

"(c) "Sternlight" means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of the vessel."

Having a stern light on the stern/transom of a Catalina 30 is practicable. A "sternlight" at the top of the mast is not "placed near" the stern.

You powerboat is legit under the rules.
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Old 13-01-2014, 21:41   #33
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Rule 21 (c)

"(c) "Sternlight" means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of the vessel."

Having a stern light on the stern/transom of a Catalina 30 is practicable. A "sternlight" at the top of the mast is not "placed near" the stern.

You powerboat is legit under the rules.
The masthead all-round light is not a sternlight. ON the OP's boat there would not be a sternlight. Under the (< 12 meter) rules he would not need a sternlight. All he needs is an all-round white light, the location of which is not specified or restricted by the rules.

I don't see that the sternlight rules apply here, and there is a specific rule which allows the OP's proposed arrangement (which I have linked to twice now).

On my powerboat there is no white sternlight, just an all-round light on a short mast not far aft of the sidelights (which is also used for the anchor light). Why is my boat legal, but the OP's proposed configuration is not?
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Old 13-01-2014, 21:48   #34
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
The masthead all-round light is not a sternlight. ON the OP's boat there would not be a sternlight. Under the (< 12 meter) rules he would not need a sternlight. All he needs is an all-round white light, the location of which is not specified or restricted by the rules.
Make that 7 meters - there is no 12 meter exemption for lights on sailing vessels as there is for power-driven vessels

Quote:
(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit: Sailing Vessel Underway

(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.
Quote:
(d) (i) A sailing vessel of less than 7 meter in length shall, if practicable, exhibit the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
There is an Inland exemption for vessel of less than 12 meters for dayshapes while motorsailing.
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Old 13-01-2014, 21:50   #35
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

All of Rule 25 (Inland)

Quote:
Rule 25 - Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars Return to the top of the page

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit: Sailing Vessel Underway

(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen. Sailing Vessel Underway

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line , the upper being red and the lower Green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule. Sailing Vessel Underway

(d) (i) A sailing vessel of less than 7 meter in length shall, if practicable, exhibit the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision. Sailing Vessel Underway less than 7meters

(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision. Vessel Under Oars

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so.
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Old 13-01-2014, 21:58   #36
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

At the end of the day I don't think it matters how many 'stern lights' can be seen by a ship overhauling you.... have a look at how many white lights a ship that has just overtaken you is showing.... maybe a dozen on each accomodation deck.... and lets not talk about cruise liners
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:00   #37
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

see pages 16 and 17. It seems the discord is concerning where exactly the all around light can be placed and still satisfy the Colregs:

http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...ations/420.PDF
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:07   #38
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
see pages 16 and 17. It seems the discord is concerning where exactly the all around light can be placed and still satisfy the Colregs:

http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...ations/420.PDF

In your link every sailboat has a sternlight (as per rule 21(c)) on the stern or a tricolor. That is the rules. Notice 7 meter exemption.
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:08   #39
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
You appear to be what you are not.

Rule 20(b)

(b) The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.
As an aside, rule 20(b) is probably the most often broken of them all. Fishing vessels and cruise ships very frequently have so many and such bright "other" lights as to completely overwhelm the nav lights.

Compared to them, this nitpicking about the proposed lighting scheme is beyond trivial.

Jim
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:20   #40
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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As an aside, rule 20(b) is probably the most often broken of them all. Fishing vessels and cruise ships very frequently have so many and such bright "other" lights as to completely overwhelm the nav lights.

Compared to them, this nitpicking about the proposed lighting scheme is beyond trivial.

Jim
That is true.

As an instructor, I have to know and teach the right stuff.

These discussions help me to reinforce my own knowledge.

And I do spend a lot time out at night.
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:27   #41
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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In your link every sailboat has a sternlight (as per rule 21(c)) on the stern or a tricolor. That is the rules. Notice 7 meter exemption.
It also says a sail vessel under machine-propulsion is a power-driven vessel in which case fig. 2 might apply?
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:38   #42
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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It also says a sail vessel under machine-propulsion is a power-driven vessel in which case fig. 2 might apply?
That all round would have to be unobscured by dodgers and other canvas, etc.

I would not do it. I like to to be seen and seen for what I am.
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:51   #43
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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It also says a sail vessel under machine-propulsion is a power-driven vessel in which case fig. 2 might apply?
YES!

Jackdale, Rule 25 which you quote is for vessels under sail. You will note that it makes no mention of a steaming light at all. It does mention the conical dayshape in the case where the sails are also up, and in this paragraph also mentions the <12 meter exception.

I don't understand why the rules for powered vessels don't apply to a sailboat under power. They do when it comes to the rules of the road, and I've been taught that they do for lighting as well. Please show me otherwise. If I'm wrong I would love to correct that, but so far I'm not convinced.

Jim, this may be "trivial nitpicking" (and you're right, the highly-illuminated cruise ships and fishing boats make it damn-near impossible to see their red/green sidelights), but I do want to understand the rules.
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Old 13-01-2014, 22:55   #44
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

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That all round would have to be unobscured by dodgers and other canvas, etc.

I would not do it. I like to to be seen and seen for what I am.
The all-round white light we are discussing is at the top of the mast, and hardly going to be obscured by a dodger.

I too prefer to see the "regular" lights, and if it were my boat would go up the mast and replace the burned-out steaming light ASAP. But our preferences don't make the OP's proposal non-compliant.
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Old 13-01-2014, 23:29   #45
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Re: Anchor light as mast head light under power?

I've been doing this for years, not that I give a rats ass what the coast guard thinks. I spent countless hours on the phone with them trying to figure it out and when they couldn't answer my question I went in person and they couldn't answer it. So I use my tri coler
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