Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: Does a vessel ever have Right of Way over other vessels?
No - a vessel does not have 'right of way' 23 36.51%
yes- vessels have 'right of way' depending on the circumstances. 5 7.94%
The COLREGS define who has 'right of way' 4 6.35%
The COLREGS do not refer to 'right of way' at all. 42 66.67%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-03-2015, 09:44   #196
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I think I'll throw another wrinkle into this discussion. That is the difference between a course and a heading. When I learned navigation a course could consist of mutiple legs of different headings. Since the COLREGs require the stand on vessel to hold course, it would seem to cause a problem for the give way vessel if the stand on vessels "course" has a heading change planned. So do the COLREGs really expect the stand on vessel to hold heading and speed or course and speed?

Course - course over ground
Heading - could be anything depending on leeway, currents etc
__________________

__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 10:22   #197
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
The stand on vessel is required ot maintain course and speed. He will just have to forego the heading change until after the event.

Now we could add another wrinkle

What if the stand on vessel puts itself into danger by maintaining its course - say a reef up ahead.
You're not required to stand-on into danger. Neither will the other vessel expect you to do so, but here is a good case for getting on the VHF to agree maneuvers with the other vessel, so that will know which way you intend to turn.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 10:36   #198
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Mallorca
Boat: Dragon
Posts: 82
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You're not required to stand-on into danger. Neither will the other vessel expect you to do so, but here is a good case for getting on the VHF to agree maneuvers with the other vessel, so that will know which way you intend to turn.
A fresh can ' o worms...

Dockhead, I give you...

MGN ' 167 Dangers in the use of VHF for Collision Avoidance'

__________________
Duct Tape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 10:42   #199
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 596
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
This opens a whole bag of worms. I am about to get some real book learning. This should keep us busy until the end of the year...


I hope so!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
...
BTW - This is not a send up. 11 questions sounds dumb for one photo but everyone on the water should be able to resolve this on the boat in 30 seconds or less.

I am sure we will debate it for days...
Excellent!

I must be a sick b....d, since I like these discussions.



Later,
Dan
__________________
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 12:40   #200
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You're not required to stand-on into danger. Neither will the other vessel expect you to do so, but here is a good case for getting on the VHF to agree maneuvers with the other vessel, so that will know which way you intend to turn.
Hoisting a singnal flag X followed with E or I
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 12:43   #201
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
The original question was not limited to a specific rule - or from my reading of it, to the international colregs. The poll asked does a vessel ever have 'right of way' - if that vessel is downbound on the Great Lakes etc, then it has right of way. The other part of my original post was that 'right of way' is not written in the IRPCS, but as a concept it could be argued to exist within them - to illustrate that I chose to discuss the 'not impede' rule from IRPCS. I don't know how you think parts of the IRPCS should be excluded from the discussion.


Oh nonsense - one is not exclusive of the other. I live in a western democracy - I have many "rights", including that of freedom. Do I not have obligations? Of course I do - I'm obliged to obey the law. If I don't abide by those obligations, I might find my right to freedom curtailed.

I said I was out, but I still had wifi this morning. That's likely to change, so it may be awhile before I'm able to respond.
If a vessel is downbound in a current on the great lakes it has precedencce. If it's downbobound on Sake St Claire, Pellee Passage, Huron Cut, open water etc this mod doesn't apply.

It has to do with the unbound vessels ability to station keep in the current, not the direction of travel.

I know this isn't necessarily pertinent to the discussion, unless traveling on the lakes.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 13:04   #202
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duct Tape View Post
A fresh can ' o worms...

Dockhead, I give you...

MGN ' 167 Dangers in the use of VHF for Collision Avoidance'

Yes, I frequently cite that myself. There are many dangers using VHF in lieu of proper action according to the Rules. But this is one exceptional case where can be really helpful.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 13:34   #203
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I think I'll throw another wrinkle into this discussion. That is the difference between a course and a heading. When I learned navigation a course could consist of mutiple legs of different headings. Since the COLREGs require the stand on vessel to hold course, it would seem to cause a problem for the give way vessel if the stand on vessels "course" has a heading change planned. So do the COLREGs really expect the stand on vessel to hold heading and speed or course and speed?
Exactly. How does one boat know the other boat's intentions? How does it know I plan to turn to port to enter a marina?

Most importantly, what makes you think that the other boater knows the regulations and interprets them the same way you do?
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 13:57   #204
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Exactly. How does one boat know the other boat's intentions? How does it know I plan to turn to port to enter a marina?

Most importantly, what makes you think that the other boater knows the regulations and interprets them the same way you do?
You should have a reasonable estimate of his intentions because he should be making bold alterations of course in order to communicate his intentions. If he s headed on a fairway there's a reasonable probability he intends to turn into the channel upon reaching the fairway.

If you observe its usually pretty apparent when a vessel intends to enter a marina or port.

There are standard interpretations of the regulations that most commercial mariners are familiar with as well as many learned recreational sailors- many of those standard interpretations are being discussed here (and argued against).

Refer to rule 8 for guidelines on using your vessel itself for non-verbal communication.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 14:05   #205
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Exactly. How does one boat know the other boat's intentions? How does it know I plan to turn to port to enter a marina?

Most importantly, what makes you think that the other boater knows the regulations and interprets them the same way you do?
There's confusion here between "course" and "route". When you are required to hold your course, you are not allowed to turn, even if you've reached a waypoint and planned to turn according to your route. You must not turn to port into the marina, if you're supposed to be standing on.

How do you know the other skipper knows the rules? Ah, here's the rub. When some people refuse to learn or follow the rules, the whole system breaks down. Successful collision avoidance requires predictability. That's why professionals hate it when we make up our own rules, instead of following the COLREGS.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 15:18   #206
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva Espańa
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,628
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I think I'll throw another wrinkle into this discussion. That is the difference between a course and a heading. When I learned navigation a course could consist of mutiple legs of different headings. Since the COLREGs require the stand on vessel to hold course, it would seem to cause a problem for the give way vessel if the stand on vessels "course" has a heading change planned. So do the COLREGs really expect the stand on vessel to hold heading and speed or course and speed?
I would say that:

Course is the direction a vessel is moving over the ground.
Heading is the direction the boat is pointed
Route is one or more courses traveling from one's start point to one's destination.

I think the intent of the rules is for the stand-on vessel to behave in a predictable manner so in open water they should maintain course and speed and in confined water such as when following a channel, the channel should continue to be followed which would be predictable to anyone carrying the appropriate chart and paying attention to same.
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 15:20   #207
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Exactly. How does one boat know the other boat's intentions? How does it know I plan to turn to port to enter a marina?

Most importantly, what makes you think that the other boater knows the regulations and interprets them the same way you do?
Signal flag, E to starboard I to port. Better than VHF,everyone to see even paddle boards. Every boat should have a watch who knows the regulations.
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 15:25   #208
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
Signal flag, E to starboard I to port. Better than VHF,everyone to see even paddle boards. Every boat should have a watch who knows the regulations.
This sounds a little labour intensive to me. Have you ever seen this done?

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 16:04   #209
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
You should have a reasonable estimate of his intentions because he should be making bold alterations of course in order to communicate his intentions. If he s headed on a fairway there's a reasonable probability he intends to turn into the channel upon reaching the fairway.

If you observe its usually pretty apparent when a vessel intends to enter a marina or port.

There are standard interpretations of the regulations that most commercial mariners are familiar with as well as many learned recreational sailors- many of those standard interpretations are being discussed here (and argued against).

Refer to rule 8 for guidelines on using your vessel itself for non-verbal communication.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
I have only once seen turn signals on a boat and that was on a smaller boat designed to be trailered. It had a wiring harness to be connected to the trailer and the boat turn signals and brake lights were synchronized with those of the trailer.

Some boaters will give an indication of their intentions, many more will not. Many operators are distracted by other things and of course there are the boats running on autopilot.

I know how to give indications of my actions.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2015, 16:14   #210
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: All things COLREGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There's confusion have here between "course" and "route". When you are required to hold your course, you are not allowed to turn, even if you've reached a waypoint and planned to turn according to your route. You must not turn to port into the marina, if you're supposed to be standing on.
The problem with that is, you may be forced to continue well past your destination by a passing boat. Most of us would just slow or stop but we know that's against the regulations.

Quote:
How do you know the other skipper knows the rules? Ah, here's the rub. When some people refuse to learn or follow the rules, the whole system breaks down. Successful collision avoidance requires predictability. That's why professionals hate it when we make up our own rules, instead of following the COLREGS.
In my area, it's a given that they do not know the rules and it's a high probability that they are not entirely sober. Also in my area, it's possible to rent boats with no experience necessary. You could say that the system is broken down.

Let's put this in a pipe and smoke it:

On the AICW (in the USA), it's common practice for a faster boat approaching a slower boat to get on the VHF and request a "slow pass". This means that the boat being passed slows to the speed where it can maintain steerage and the passing boat slows down to no-wake speed and completes the pass. The passing boat then resumes speed as does the boat that was passed.

On the surface, this is a direct violation of the COLREGs, yet it's viewed as a common courtesy on the ICW.
__________________

__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LED Lights and ColRegs Weyalan Marine Electronics 11 03-08-2016 09:57
Colregs Question unbusted67 Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 2 11-12-2008 19:41
<rant on> ColRegs Amgine The Sailor's Confessional 16 13-08-2007 11:39
Things that work and things that don't... svHyLyte Construction, Maintenance & Refit 58 03-11-2006 23:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.