All things COLREGS

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

"Right of way" is not specifically mentioned in the International Colregs, but as a concept one could argue that it exists within them. "Right of way" is described in the US Inland Rules.

In a simplistic comparison to driving a car on the road "Right of Way" can be used analogously to parts of the COLREGS.

That however is misleading for less experienced boaters since both case law and at least one one of the rules explicitly place the burden of avoiding collisions on all involved vessels meaning that none of the other rules grants a right.

As a means of making that point better to newer boaters it seems wise to not even use the phrase.


Adelie

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by monte

Ok I have a quick question that doesn't deserve it's own thread..sailing downwind on a broad reach, I'm on a starboard tack and the other vessel is on a broad reach on a port tack on a collision course. Who is the stand on vessel in open sea and who is the stand on vessel during a sailing race?

If both boats are racing then stand on depends on the racing rules and additional particulars of the situation. The governing rules are usually delineated in the original race announcement.

Starboard tack is stand on where one or more vessels involved is not racing. Keep in mind that racers often assume that everyone near them is also racing so the may not respond as the COLREGS indicates the should.


Adelie

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

When I went to sea they were never refered to as COLREGS...always 'Rules of the Road'....
I'm not sure when people started calling them COLREGS and 'Rules of the Road' slipped from common usage but it is relatively recent. 'Recent' of course being relative.

So is it COLREGS, Colregs, or IRPCS? Best we all try to get it right for the avoidance of confusion

They say that those that can - do, those that can't - teach, and those that can't teach teach teachers work for the WA Department of Transport Collision rules (rules of the road)

1972 they became the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, ColRegs is an acronym. Like RADAR.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

1972 they became the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, ColRegs is an acronym. Like RADAR.

Now you are just confusing things by introducing ColRegs into the mix

I wish I could find my old 1960 copy of the 'rules' to compare the wording.

I tend to say radar meself.....

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Adelie

If both boats are racing then stand on depends on the racing rules and additional particulars of the situation. The governing rules are usually delineated in the original race announcement.

Starboard tack is stand on where one or more vessels involved is not racing. Keep in mind that racers often assume that everyone near them is also racing so the may not respond as the COLREGS indicates the should.


Adelie

In fact in a port-starboard situation between two sailing boats the Racing Rules and COLREGS call for the same behavior are not that different. Basically if they are in a collision course then Port has to alter course to let Starboard go through, and Starboard should not make things more difficult by changing course.

If both boats are racing, then the Racing Rules apply. If they are not close to a mark, other boats, obstructions, etc then Rule 10 applies in the middle of the ocean or in a little reservoir. The boat on port tack "shall keep clear" and the boat on starboard tack "has right-of-way" subject to certain limitations: a) if she changes course she has to give the other boat room to keep clear; b) almost anywhere form a little lake to the open sea. Furthermore, the boat on starboard tack shall avoid contact with the other boat if reasonably possible, but need tot act to avoid contact until it is clear that he other boat i snot keeping clear and shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.

If, on the other hand, the boats were in the same tack, then COLREGS and the Racing Rules are quite different. I think that is what Adelie was thinking about.

[OldFrog75]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

If, on the other hand, the boats were in the same tack, then COLREGS and the Racing Rules are quite different. I think that is what Adelie was thinking about.

Can you be more specific? Are you talking about the right of a leeward boat to defend it's wind by luffing up a windward boat or something else?

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

Can you be more specific? Are you talking about the right of a leeward boat to defend it's wind by luffing up a windward boat or something else?

Exactly.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

In fact in a port-starboard situation between two sailing boats the Racing Rules and COLREGS call for the same behavior are not that different. Basically if they are in a collision course then Port has to alter course to let Starboard go through, and Starboard should not make things more difficult by changing course.



If both boats are racing, then the Racing Rules apply. If they are not close to a mark, other boats, obstructions, etc then Rule 10 applies in the middle of the ocean or in a little reservoir. The boat on port tack "shall keep clear" and the boat on starboard tack "has right-of-way" subject to certain limitations: a) if she changes course she has to give the other boat room to keep clear; b) almost anywhere form a little lake to the open sea. Furthermore, the boat on starboard tack shall avoid contact with the other boat if reasonably possible, but need tot act to avoid contact until it is clear that he other boat i snot keeping clear and shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.



If, on the other hand, the boats were in the same tack, then COLREGS and the Racing Rules are quite different. I think that is what Adelie was thinking about.

If both boats were racing then there may be similarities with the COLREGS but there will be subtle differences generally and large differences under specific circumstances.

In addition different races will have different rules depending on country and even the boats being raced.


Adelie

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Your dictionary definition of 'right of way' doesn't support your argument. And when we refer to 'burdened' vessel, we are usually talking about the give way vessel, not the stand on vessel; that vessel is often referred to as 'privileged.'

we can argue about the definition, although I don't think it completely necessary.


re: burdened versus priviledged. I was also taught that this is the absolutely correct terminology (in Danish, however). But the term "burdened" can be applied equally to both.


Both vessels are "burdened with an obligation" The one vessel is burdened with the obligation to give way and the other with the burden of standing on.




However, I'm happy to concede this point to you, it doesn't really matter that mmuch for the purposes of the discussion

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I thought it might be useful to create a dedicated Thread to promote a better understanding of the “Rules”, by discussing the implications and various phrases of each Rule and then giving Court interpretations.

Here's the first post from a long term discussion of the rule that dealt with them one at a time and petered out about half way thru the rules.


Adelie

[rwidman]

No - a vessel does not have 'right of way'

Try telling that to a US Navy vessel being escorted by a half a dozen gunboats.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Try telling that to a US Navy vessel being escorted by a half a dozen gunboats.

Which reminds us of the old joke:


US Warship: Please divert your course 0.5 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

Canadian reply: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.

US Warship: This is the Captain of a US Navy Warship. I say again, divert your course.

Canadian reply: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course!

US Warship: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS CORAL SEA, WE ARE A LARGE WARSHIP OF THE US NAVY. DIVERT YOUR COURSE NOW!!

Canadian reply: This is a lighthouse. Your call.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Been away for a day and find you people have gone on at length. As I said previously, one could make the argument that the concept of 'right of way' is arguably covered in the IRPCS. If you look at any of the situations where 'not impede' applies, then the vessel that shall not be impeded could be said to have the right of way.

Except that, as you yourself taught us all some years ago, the vessel "not to be impeded" will nevertheless be the give-way vessel once a risk of collision arises, if that's what the steering and sailing rules provide.

Methinks you're stirring up trouble here! That would be a pretty strange kind of "right of way".

[El Pinguino]

Meanwhile, while still searching for my 1960 rules I did find a copy of the '54 ones in Bonwick's 'Ship's Business' where 'Rule of the Road' is refered to... so that expression predates any attempts to dumb down the whole business for lubberly folk, yachtsmen, and their ilk.

[Ex-Calif]

I think one of the seriously detrimental things that these laborious threads about the regs do is they scare the bejesus out of newer boaters.

"My God! If these experienced guys can't agree how am I supposed to know what to do. I am just gonna stay outta everyone's way."

Hence, Dockhead's fear/complaint that sailboats maneuver unnecessarily in crossing situations with ships.

Words unlock the power of ideas. Most people here are saying that "right of way" unlocks the wrong idea. "Stand on" and "give way" unlock a more correct idea.

I hate the traffic light analogy but it may explain one thing. People who struggle with the idea that "I have rights" until a collision is imminent in boating maybe can't wrap their head around it. I mean if the light is green I have rights until I smash into that guy, and if I am still alive after I still have that "right."

Defensive drivers always are on the lookout for cars that might run a red light, a kid chasing a ball into a street, cyclists (the worst) and the sane ones avoid collisions whenever possible. But we are not obligated to.