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View Poll Results: Can you legally sail solo single handed
Yes, as long as you use all available means to keep a look out 66 62.26%
No, all solo sailors are in breach of the Colregs 29 27.36%
The Colregs are intended for two handed sailors not one 3 2.83%
What's the Colregs? 9 8.49%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14-06-2015, 22:49   #301
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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.....In all probability the Captain will be charged with something, that's how the system works, if somebody dies on your boat or because of your boat, 9 times out of 10 you are getting charged with something. In all probability any charges laid in this case will have to do with municipal liquor violations.

However, could a good lawyer argue, that a proper look out may not have been maintained?
A good lawyer can argue anything, but the question of criminal liability will be based on whether there was gross negligence on the part of the professional crew.... or in civil liability... a physical failure of railings or access, that contributed to the passenger going over.

William F Buckley wrote about an Xmas evening cruise charter on his sailboat in New York, where a newly repaired weld on the stern railing let go and the person sitting on it fell over and drowned.

Civil courts found him (not the welder who did the repair) liable.

Because the victim was a young black lawyer, who had just passed the Bar..... Because of his positive social and financial potential.. the family of victim received a very high settlement.
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Old 15-06-2015, 01:20   #302
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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A good lawyer can argue anything, but the question of criminal liability will be based on whether there was gross negligence on the part of the professional crew.... or in civil liability... a physical failure of railings or access, that contributed to the passenger going over.

William F Buckley wrote about an Xmas evening cruise charter on his sailboat in New York, where a newly repaired weld on the stern railing let go and the person sitting on it fell over and drowned.

Civil courts found him (not the welder who did the repair) liable.

Because the victim was a young black lawyer, who had just passed the Bar..... Because of his positive social and financial potential.. the family of victim received a very high settlement.
They went after the person with the most capital to ensure a high payout. Its so wrong on so many levels but there you are. The welder was at fault clearly, yet MONEY not blame was the desired outcome. Tis but life and the mechanisms of greed.

Another GOOD reason to sail alone.
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Old 15-06-2015, 03:53   #303
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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lets take a slightly differnet twist on rule 5. would a deaf couple be in violation while sail since while on watch they would not be able to use "hearing". does rule 5 prevent deaf people from sailing ?
If enforced strictly, it certainly would.

We don't allow blind people to drive, so I don't think this is a strange idea.

Whether or not it would ever be enforced strictly is a different question. But I wouldn't be surprised if having no one on watch on a container ship except a deaf guy would be considered a gross violation and grounds for a fine. You need hearing to perceive sounds signals, and hearing is an important means of detecting the presence of another vessel.
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Old 15-06-2015, 03:55   #304
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
A good lawyer can argue anything, but the question of criminal liability will be based on whether there was gross negligence on the part of the professional crew.... or in civil liability... a physical failure of railings or access, that contributed to the passenger going over.

William F Buckley wrote about an Xmas evening cruise charter on his sailboat in New York, where a newly repaired weld on the stern railing let go and the person sitting on it fell over and drowned.

Civil courts found him (not the welder who did the repair) liable.

Because the victim was a young black lawyer, who had just passed the Bar..... Because of his positive social and financial potential.. the family of victim received a very high settlement.
Well, it's all a little more complicated than that.

And unfortunately even a good lawyer can't argue anything, even if he might try
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Old 15-06-2015, 04:04   #305
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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But I wouldn't be surprised if having no one on watch on a container ship except a deaf guy would be considered a gross violation and grounds for a fine.
So how would that work?

I have never ever known anyone to be 'fined' for anything involving the real world of seafaring.
No loss of life and no sunken ship.... a good chance of no official enquiry... just the sort of thing the ATSB puts out which apportions no blame...

Loss of life and sunken ship and other assorted bad ****.... master's ticket taken away for 12 months or whatever...

The beak.. 'Mister mate , I find you guilty of being deaf and fine you fifty pounds and another fiver in the poor box for the fishermen's wives and orphans!!'

The mate ' What? you really will have to speak up... I'm rather deaf....'
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Old 15-06-2015, 04:08   #306
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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Maybe so, but I'd be surprised if the Colregs were in play, unless perhaps a navigational error, collision, grounding, excessive speed, etc. directly led to the MOB. If it was confined to a (maybe drunk) passenger falling off the boat on his/her own accord, then I would think that, for e.g., whether there were adequate crew, where they were posted, other factors pertaining to the vessel's compliance with MOB prevention & recovery, etc., would fall under the CG's rules & regs. for inspected vessels. If nothing else, it seems a stretch to have this fall under Rule 5's requirement for keeping a proper lookout. But I'm certainly no expert!

Btw, if this occurred on the Great Lakes, it is my understanding that the Inland Navigation Rules are in effect in any event, not the Colregs.

Hey Rustic -- how come your otherwise interesting & informative thread on Rule 5 refers to Rule "3" in the title?! (hey, somebody had to ask . . . .)
I'm by no means saying this guy is guilty of failing to maintain a proper look out. I'm just saying it's a question a prudent investigator might ask. That investigator may well come to the same conclusion as you, I think I would too, but there is enough lack of clarity in the regulations that the question is worth asking.

Those inland sailing rules are an American thing, Canadians follow the ColRegs, with a few modifications, but as this occurred on a lake- non of those mods would apply.

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Old 15-06-2015, 04:54   #307
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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So how would that work?

I have never ever known anyone to be 'fined' for anything involving the real world of seafaring.
No loss of life and no sunken ship.... a good chance of no official enquiry... just the sort of thing the ATSB puts out which apportions no blame...

Loss of life and sunken ship and other assorted bad ****.... master's ticket taken away for 12 months or whatever...

The beak.. 'Mister mate , I find you guilty of being deaf and fine you fifty pounds and another fiver in the poor box for the fishermen's wives and orphans!!'

The mate ' What? you really will have to speak up... I'm rather deaf....'
Yes, I agree with you -- that's how it generally works. And how it should work. The last thing we need at sea are water cops checking and handing out tickets for COLREGS violations.

It is not that common, but it does happen sometimes, that fines are issued for COLREGS violations without an accident happening. Most common cases of this are probably TSS violations, e.g. 1,400 fine for ignoring Colregs - Yachting Monthly. The Germans actually are quite aggressive about policing the TSS in the German Bight, and hand out 1000 euro fines almost daily (as German sailors have told me).

As to a deaf guy on watch -- hard to imagine how they would catch you. But what if you had such a case, a near collision occurred, the ship with the deaf guy didn't respond to sound signals and couldn't be raised on the VHF? There was a stink about it and they discovered this crewing anomaly. You can imagine a fine being issued. But I agree -- highly theoretical.
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Old 15-06-2015, 05:04   #308
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pirate Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, I agree with you -- that's how it generally works. And how it should work. The last thing we need at sea are water cops checking and handing out tickets for COLREGS violations.

It is not that common, but it does happen sometimes, that fines are issued for COLREGS violations without an accident happening. Most common cases of this are probably TSS violations, e.g. 1,400 fine for ignoring Colregs - Yachting Monthly. The Germans actually are quite aggressive about policing the TSS in the German Bight, and hand out 1000 euro fines almost daily (as German sailors have told me).

As to a deaf guy on watch -- hard to imagine how they would catch you. But what if you had such a case, a near collision occurred, the ship with the deaf guy didn't respond to sound signals and couldn't be raised on the VHF? There was a stink about it and they discovered this crewing anomaly. You can imagine a fine being issued. But I agree -- highly theoretical.
1000euros..?
Loose change.. Straits of Gibraltar you can times that by 100..
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Old 15-06-2015, 05:17   #309
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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Yes, I agree with you -- that's how it generally works. And how it should work. The last thing we need at sea are water cops checking and handing out tickets for COLREGS violations.

It is not that common, but it does happen sometimes, that fines are issued for COLREGS violations without an accident happening. Most common cases of this are probably TSS violations, e.g. 1,400 fine for ignoring Colregs - Yachting Monthly. The Germans actually are quite aggressive about policing the TSS in the German Bight, and hand out 1000 euro fines almost daily (as German sailors have told me).

As to a deaf guy on watch -- hard to imagine how they would catch you. But what if you had such a case, a near collision occurred, the ship with the deaf guy didn't respond to sound signals and couldn't be raised on the VHF? There was a stink about it and they discovered this crewing anomaly. You can imagine a fine being issued. But I agree -- highly theoretical.
Or worse yet- land cops policing the sea- shudder.

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Old 15-06-2015, 05:26   #310
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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If enforced strictly, it certainly would.

We don't allow blind people to drive, so I don't think this is a strange idea.

Whether or not it would ever be enforced strictly is a different question. But I wouldn't be surprised if having no one on watch on a container ship except a deaf guy would be considered a gross violation and grounds for a fine. You need hearing to perceive sounds signals, and hearing is an important means of detecting the presence of another vessel.
I wouldn't bet on that; they've got Braille on the pin pads at the drive through restaurant windows.


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Old 15-06-2015, 05:44   #311
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

Deaf people can drive. Let's keep it in context.

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Old 15-06-2015, 05:54   #312
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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Deaf people can drive. Let's keep it in context.

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Sure, but blind people can't.

Rule 5 requires sight AND hearing at sea.

Whether anyone makes a big deal out of it is another question (probably never), but technically it would be a clear violation of Rule 5 not to have a person with hearing on watch.
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Old 15-06-2015, 06:22   #313
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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Sure, but blind people can't.

Rule 5 requires sight AND hearing at sea.

Whether anyone makes a big deal out of it is another question (probably never), but technically it would be a clear violation of Rule 5 not to have a person with hearing on watch.
Authorities have turned 'a blind eye', so to speak, to Blind Sailors, as far as I can tell... This 'legally blind' couple set off on a planned circumnavigation from San Francisco about a decade ago, to considerable hoopla, articles in CRUISING WORLD, etc... If there ever there was a candidate for the USCG declaring a 'Manifestly Unsafe Voyage', theirs might have been it, but their departure took place to considerable fanfare...

The Blind Circumnavigation - Home

They made it to Australia, where they languished for awhile, then split up and eventually went their separate ways... This placed the guy in a bit of a quandry, I found this comment from his blog pretty amusing:

Quote:

“I was now faced with the decision to continue without her or seek out a new visually impaired sailing partner. For months I looked at this decision from every angle and started to investigate both options..."


Apparently, the possibility of seeking out a sailing partner who may NOT have been "visually impaired" was never on the table...

:-))
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Old 15-06-2015, 06:29   #314
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Authorities have turned 'a blind eye', so to speak, to Blind Sailors, as far as I can tell... This 'legally blind' couple set off from San Francisco about a decade ago, to considerable hoopla, articles in CRUISING WORLD, etc... If there ever there was a candidate for the USCG declaring a 'Manifestly Unsafe Voyage', theirs might have been it, but their departure took place to considerable fanfare...

The Blind Circumnavigation - Home

They made it to Australia, where they languished for awhile, then split up and eventually went their separate ways... This placed the guy in a bit of a quandry, I found this comment from his blog pretty amusing:


Apparently, the possibility of seeking out a sailing partner who may NOT have been "visually impaired" was never on the table...

:-))
Blind sailors certainly gives new meaning to the idea of a "proper lookout"

Yes, I'm aware of it. There was a blind sailor over here doing a circumnav of Britain, IIRC.

As we've discussed, there is -- properly -- a lot of tolerance in the system, and not much literal or strict enforcement of the Rules.

That's why I would not hesitate to single hand if I felt like it, and if my insurance allowed it. The risk of being fined for it is near zero, and the risk of being unfairly blamed in an accident also seems low. The risk to others is negligible, and the risk to myself is very little assuming I am using other means to avoid collisions (egg timer horizon scans, AIS alarm, depth alarm, radar guard zone alarms). Even thought I think it is a violation of the Rules, if applied strictly.
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Old 15-06-2015, 06:49   #315
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Re: All about the Colregs no 3 - single handed sailing and keeping a look out

Gerry Hughes becomes first deaf person to sail round the world - BBC News
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