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Old 04-09-2009, 13:28   #31
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Originally Posted by Chattcatdaddy View Post
15 meters! Woot! Another reason to have a small boat.

15m is just over 49 feet.


just sayin
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Old 04-09-2009, 14:48   #32
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It would be a pitty because if every boat had it many would leave it on at anchor and the ships would turn off Class B because of clutter.
All Ais software allows you to selectively filter AIS targets so it's easy to turn off targets that you dont want to reduce clutter
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Old 04-09-2009, 14:53   #33
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Yes, swagman, the EU directives that we are discussing are aimed at large EU ships and at EU fishing boats. The second directive is very clear about this.

Moreover, as barnakiel explained, EU directives are NOT law by themselves. To become law in a country, they have to be transposed into the legal system of this country and this can take "some time".

Regarding possible future applicability to non-EU vessels, the two directives address different domains:
1) Insurance is an “administrative” requirement, in the same category as entry visas for foreigners. Then, it is conceivable that it becomes mandatory for all vessels, in the same way as it is for all cars.
2) AIS is a “material” requirement and the international rules are clear: such rules can only be enforced by the “Flag State”. I am not worried about AIS becoming mandatory for small European yachts in the near future. The French regulations, which were among the strictest until 2004, are much lighter now.

Moondancer, the 'national sport' of French fishing boats is not specially aimed at English flagged sailboats. Even French flagged boats are not safe. The other day, I had to alter course to avoid a collision in full daylight with a fishing boat at flank speed. Fishermen work hard and often use the autopilot, with nobody in the wheelhouse.

Be aware that some fishermen still think that yachts shouldn’t exist and take active measures to fulfilling this.

Alain
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Old 04-09-2009, 15:26   #34
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Be aware that some fishermen still think that yachts shouldn’t exist and take active measures to fulfilling this.
Yes, I noticed that one day sailing into St Malo...the attempt to hit me was quite deliberate.

Love sailing the French west coast...great sailing and lovely food.

I'll look you up when we get back there in about 3 yrs time.

Phil
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Old 05-09-2009, 05:44   #35
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AIS de-cluttering

I do not think the de-cluttering algorithms allow any "collision course" object to be removed from neither Class A, nor Class B plotter. It might (?) be possible at the level of some PC based software but here we are not talking about software used on commercial craft.

The general rule is that any de-cluttering turned on (ARPA off, etc) is:

1) registered in the black box, and
2) the mechanism dims (not removes) only objects which are far off, moving slow or in diverging direction - thus calculated as not at risk of collision.

Should any 'de-cluttered' object change course or speed so that it falls into the CPA TCPA ranges, the plotter unit automatically brings it back to attention of the operator.

I can't believe any serious maker of PC software would have it any other way - de-cluttering is only meant to remove too numerous objects from the screen, so that the navigator can concentrate on those objects which actually matter - not on the basis of their 'Class' but on the basis of their CPA and TCPA.

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Old 05-09-2009, 10:54   #36
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My opinion is that every poster here complaining about cluttering of targets have never used AIS themselves in the first place. There is no problem.

The system is smart enough to determine which targets are stationary (moored or anchored) and which not. It will only generate collision alarms for targets that really are going to enter your safety-zone. My software shows dynamic red areas to tell me where not to go, it's all very easy.

When we approached Colon in Panama, we saw 132 targets. From far away, sure the screen looks cluttered, but as you approach, you zoom in and it opens up, just like when physically looking at it. We also saw ships coming out of the harbor (can't see that as there's no line of view) and communication with the Cristobal traffic controller is a piece of cake because you already know where each ship is that will enter/exit before your turn and the ones that come after you. And they see you the same way.

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Old 05-09-2009, 11:04   #37
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Even in a place like the SF Bay where there can be a couple dozen vessels with AIS transponders underway at one time, clutter is not a problem.
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:17   #38
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There's actually a contradiction between the noonsite report and the EU directive:

"This piece of legislation is aimed at fishing boats, not at leisure yachts, but the sailing boats will be caught as well." Noonsite

"Considering the large number of collisions involving fishing vessels that have clearly not been seen by merchant ships or which have not seen the merchant ships around them, extension of that measure to include fishing vessels with a length of more than 15 metres is very much to be desired." EU Directive
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Old 05-09-2009, 13:06   #39
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idpnd,
When I saw the Noonsite report, I didn't trust it. I was already aware of the new requirement of AIS for fishing boats over 15m in length (I was in an electronics shop when a technician gave the good news to a fisherman) but I had no information regarding yachts. For this reason, I checked the exact wording of the EU directive.

I think that Noonsite has a hidden agenda regarding European Union maritime policy.

Alain
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Old 05-09-2009, 14:30   #40
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And I think noonsite is like any other place on the Internet - a mixture of facts and interpretations. Facts tend to be sound, interpretations may vary in quality. And it is often hard to say the facts from the interpretations.

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Old 05-09-2009, 16:31   #41
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So what's the verdict? Should one send them a comment/correction?
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Old 05-09-2009, 18:24   #42
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Noonsite is often wrong or reports hearsay as fact in my specific experience

also The idea that flag states control what is on boats and not country of destination, does not apply to leasuire boats which are outside the UN/IMO arena. Frances safety legislation requiring basic safety items onboard a yacht applies to all pleasure boats navigating in its waters. ( I know this for a fact) and the Gendarme Martime, will spell it out to you in no uncertain terms
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Old 05-09-2009, 18:24   #43
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No hway!

Having all 15m+ European boats carry AIS B is exactly what we want! We just make up a little venture selling the units!

BTW and on the same note - anybody knows if the project to have (was it GEOS?) satellites track AIS over larger patches of oceans has been taken off the ground?

Read about it when they were launching the first sat. Ages ago. Wondering if it is functional by now.

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Old 05-09-2009, 22:55   #44
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Barnakiel,

I have never heard about those plans and think it will not work as the VHF antenna's used don't radiate upward enough. But then again, if EPIRB's manage it, why not AIS.

What I do know is that they already use some advanced AIS tricks:
  • Virtual buoys. You see buoys on AIS which are not there physically. They use this temporary for markers swept away by storms or to put markers around a vessel in trouble, like that grounded ferry off the coast of England years ago. These targets are transmitted by shore stations.
  • AIS targets for vessels without AIS. Shore radar stations detect these and generate AIS target messages that are transmitted. Basically ARPA targets are converted to AIS targets.
  • Iceberg patrol planes shoot an AIS transponder onto new big icebergs coming down from Greenland. You will see the iceberg as an AIS target.

I love it all.

ciao!
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:07   #45
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AIS via sat

Hi,

So this is not where I read it first (around 2005) but adressing the same issue. Anybody knows how far the USCG / ORBCOM got? I know Norwegians have just started, which may indicate the USCG achieved nothing or ran out of funds:

AIS Ship Tracking Via Satellite

Ciao,
b.
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