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Old 02-09-2009, 23:23   #16
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just under the limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chattcatdaddy View Post
15 meters! Woot! Another reason to have a small boat.
My boat was designed in 1949 by William Atkin, even back then he knew about the magic 30' mark....so much stuff that is 30' and over costs extra, so he made her 29' 10"
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Old 02-09-2009, 23:25   #17
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I agree fully with the new regulations. Also, I haven't found a marina in the USA that doesn't require you to have boat insurance, so what's the difference?

The boat is the boat. When it is navigating the busiest waters in the world it is for your safety too, to make sure other shipping can detect you. The authorities don't need it, they have you on their radar for many years already.

ciao!
Nick.

The AIS is not that big of a deal. I do have problems with the insurance. The post says nothing about marinas requiring insurance. It just says insurance in general. Maybe the post is just too vague on what the actual regualtion is trying to enforce. I stayed at a marina in the Florida Keys for a year with no insurance. The marina might have required it, but they never asked for proof. I didn`t lie or hide the fact I didn`t have insurance and never signed any document that stated I should have insurance.

Anybody have any idea on what insurance would cost for a world cruise or European cruise? I`m assuming (and we all know what that means) that the regulation is about liability insurance and not full coverage, but then again the report is vague at best.
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Old 02-09-2009, 23:49   #18
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The relatively recent requirement for insurance in marinas in the US is a result of the huge insurance company losses from 911 and the large number of hurricanes recently causing the insurance companies seek out additional revenue. That and marinas trying to keep the "apparent" rates down, annual insurance rates are fairly low and could be easily tacked on to slip fees (a part of which go to pay insurance anyway).
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Old 02-09-2009, 23:53   #19
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Well it look like this has been discussed before on these boards.

AIS Requirement in Europe?

Gordmays post indicates the 15 meter regulation is for fishing vessels.
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Old 02-09-2009, 23:56   #20
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this rule has not been introduced yet it does not yet apply to pleasure craft so those who have read the noonsite web posting on this please read it again as my yacht is 15.45 meters long it still does not apply to me and having been based in the Cyclades and sailing there since 1993 , but yes it is coming new rules on having such Items as ais
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:10   #21
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so I have to ask... how is another ship going to pick you out of a hornets nest of blips on the screen? They'll be so busy looking at the screen they won't look up to really see whats out there. I can see this going to ways of tracking the inspected boats vs. non-inspected boats.
I think the cruising community needs to speak up and make that reg apply to "Fishing Boats" and not personal recreational boats.
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:43   #22
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Anyone who has a 15 meter boat probably has an AIS among the long list of electronic gadgets and gillhickies...
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Old 03-09-2009, 13:17   #23
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Well I sail a 14 metre yacht and lots of toys - but not an AIS just yet and never read of this before in any other medium. I don't even have a horn permanently mounted (which is required at my size) and never been pinged for not complying.

I shake my head at anyone getting worried about this report. Seems we invariably need something to get excited about but suggest we can relax for the time being on this.

Even the Noonsite report says it is 'envisaged' so it is a long long way from getting legislated - if it ever does

And think about it - would they not make radar a higher priority than AIS if and when they ever get round to making collission avoidance a real issue to address??? And the way AIS unit prices are falling, by the time it might happen AIS will cost little more than a case of booze anyway.

Chill.


Re insurance. There's not a marina in continental Europe who will allow you to enter if you've not got at least third party insurance in place. It's not expensive, and if you've not got it, not sure I'd even favour you parking your boat alongside mine!

Enjoy.

JOHN
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Old 03-09-2009, 14:03   #24
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About the obligation of AIS for pleasure craft in European waters, I checked the website of the French administration, nothing appears.

AIS is now mandatory only for fishing vessels. Those longer than 15 meters overall must have Class A AIS. Those under 15 meters with closed wheelhouse and fishing in Traffic Separation Schemes must have Class B AIS. Other fishing vessels may have Class B AIS. Vessels equipped with AIS must keep it operating at all times when they are at sea.
Keep in mind that fishing is presently the most dangerous work. In France, the accident rate is about 100 times the average for the rest of all working people. Then, it is logical that governments take measures to reduce the number of accidents, especially collisions. Yachting is much less dangerous, regulations are much simpler. In France, VHF radio isn’t mandatory, even for ocean-going yachts.
Also keep in mind that a vessel only has to comply with the regulations of her Flag Sate: if a US-flagged yacht arrives in a French port, she only needs equipment required by US regulations.
About the obligation of insurance for pleasure craft, nothing appears on the website of the French administration. But remember: sometimes, a boat takes fire and sets a whole marina ablaze. If the owner of this boat has no insurance, he will pay huge sums for damages. For this reason, many marinas require a proof of insurance.
FYI, here is the English translation of the French regulations for pleasure craft under 24m in length. The style is rather clumsy but everybody should understand.
http://www.mer.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/d240_...le062945-1.pdf


Alain
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Old 03-09-2009, 14:35   #25
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Link here:
Noonsite: European Regulations Regarding Insurance Cover and AIS Equipment

And for the lazy, the content here:

Quote:

Fri, 13th Mar 2009
The 11th March package approved by the the European Parliament for maritime safety has two ramifications for leisure sailors who visit European ports. The first is mandatory anyway in many European countries, but the second will affect all yachts over 15 metres. This will affects not only European sailors, but those who charter or sail in from other parts of the world.
The package is, of course not aimed at leisure sailors, but rather at ships of the world and other commercial vessels who sail into and out of European ports.
The first tenet is the requirement for vessels to carry insurance. While the overwhelming majority of leisure sailors insure their boats now, and charter boats are already covered by law, there are a significant proportion of long range cruising sailors who don't carry insurance because of the expense. In the future they will be denied entry to any European port.
The second tenet is the requirement envisaged for all vessels over 15 metres to carry an Automatic Identification System (AIS). This piece of legislation is aimed at fishing boats, not at leisure yachts, but the sailing boats will be caught as well. More and more leisure yachts are carrying this worthy piece of electronic gear anyway, but get ready for it to be mandatory.
With this new package, the European Union will have a completely overhauled system for monitoring vessels in its ports. This system will allow a more frequent and systematic inspection of vessels, and will make it possible to ban non-complying boats, as well as ships, from European ports.
by Des Ryan

End of quote.

Those of you looking for the sources please do not search French / any particular maritime authority for the info. Rather go right to EU documents as approved by EU Parliament. There is a long way from the Parliament to the general store, and especially so if the store is in a Mediterranean country ;-)

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Old 03-09-2009, 16:56   #26
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I did as barnakiel suggested, I searched the EU websites and I found 2 EU directives:
The first one:
Directive 2009/20/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 on the insurance of shipowners for maritime claims (Text with EEA relevance)
EUR-Lex - 32009L0020 - EN
It says:

1. This Directive shall apply to ships of 300 gross tonnage or more.
()
(c) "1996 Convention" means the consolidated text of the 1976 Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims, adopted by the International Maritime Organisation (IMO), as amended by the 1996 Protocol.

Article 4
Insurance for maritime claims

1. Each Member State shall require that shipowners of ships flying its flag have insurance covering such ships.

2. Each Member State shall require shipowners of ships flying a flag other than its own to have insurance in place when such ships enter a port under the Member State's jurisdiction. This shall not prevent Member States, if in conformity with international law, from requiring compliance with that obligation when such ships are operating in their territorial waters. ()
The second one:
Directive 2009/17/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 amending Directive 2002/59/EC establishing a Community vessel traffic monitoring and information system (Text with EEA relevance)
EUR-Lex - 32009L0017 - EN

It says:
(...)

(6) The automatic ship identification systems (AIS Automatic Identification System) referred to in the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea of 1 November 1974 make it possible not only to improve the possibilities of monitoring these ships but above all to make them safer in close navigation situations. AIS have accordingly been integrated into the enacting terms of Directive 2002/59/EC. Considering the large number of collisions involving fishing vessels that have clearly not been seen by merchant ships or which have not seen the merchant ships around them, extension of that measure to include fishing vessels with a length of more than 15 metres is very much to be desired. In the framework of the European Fisheries Fund, financial assistance may be provided for the fitting on board of fishing vessels of safety equipment such as AIS. The International Maritime Organisation (IMO) has recognised that the publication for commercial purposes on the internet or elsewhere of AIS data transmitted by ships could be detrimental to the safety and security of ships and port facilities and has urged its member governments, subject to the provisions of their national laws, to discourage those who make AIS data available to others for publication on the internet or elsewhere from doing so. In addition, the confidentiality of information sent to Member States pursuant to this Directive should be ensured, and the Member States should use that information in compliance with this Directive.

(7) The obligation to fit AIS should be understood also to require that AIS be maintained in operation at all times except where international rules or standards provide for the protection of navigational information.
(...)
Then, the owners of non-EU yachts exceeding 300 gross tons or fishing yachts exceeding 15 meters in length that cannot afford insurance or AIS should avoid visiting EU ports. Anyway, they are probably not welcome.

Alain
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Old 03-09-2009, 17:58   #27
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Everybody is welcome.

These directives has been written for EU craft. The insurance has been required for long time now by most EU states in any case. And we are talking about the insurance in case we hit someone - which is what? - 100 EUR a year? Stupid yes but only untill we get hit by our neighbour coming back from a weekend sail.

The AIS transponder will add perhaps USD 500 to the cost of outfit but will vastly improve our safety - remeber a transponder is also a receiver and you will see those () fishing boats and they will see you too.

As I have said - it is a long way from the Parliament to the local law, but unlike many other administrative initiatives (like requiring from us to have holding tanks while there are no pump-out facilities anywhere in sight), I believe this one is right.

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Old 04-09-2009, 10:07   #28
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Crossing the shipping channels in the North Sea and the English Channel is difficult, the traffic is 10X higher than anywhere I have been on the east coast of the US. In bad visibility it is very dangerous. Anything that allows everyone to see and recognize each other in fog is of great benefit.

Since the 'national sport' of French fishing boats is to try and run down English flagged sailboats anything that helps me recognize and avoid them is beneficial.

Phil
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:53   #29
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I guess it was inevitable that one government or another would make using AIS transponders the law for smaller vessels. It probably will not be too long before a similar law is placed on larger recreational vessels here in the US. Its already the law in the US for larger commercial vessels, including ferries, ships and tugs.
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Old 04-09-2009, 13:23   #30
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Thanks Hydra,

I was about to search the EU Directives on the webb myself rather than assume someones 'report' on Noonsite made it factual.

So if I read that directive you found correctly, the insurance requirement is for vessels over 300 gross tons.....and nothing to do with an average cruising yacht?

And the AIS directive is for fishing vessels over 15 metres........and nothing to do with any sized cruising yacht?

Cheers
JOHN
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