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Old 31-01-2016, 12:31   #46
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
No way to answer your question without knowing how the boat was constructed. Stitched and glued? Frames or entire hull mahogany? Solid mahogany or plywood/mahogany laminate? Each will produce a different answer.
In theory you can fiberglass any wood, including teak. The wood oils will mix with the esters. Would really question why they went to a wood/glass construction unless its a stitch/glue method, and then its mostly amateur hour.
Real mahogany is rare nowadays. Most likely Philippine mahogany which is not a real mahogany and is not a happy camper in water. Probably not even a wantabee mahogany but some tropical hardwood.

If a boat came into our yard, given what you described, we would probably take a pass at it and let someone else figure it out.
American by chance? If you had actually read the first post the op clearly described the boats construction as strip planked sheathed in glass from new, if you knew anything about wooden boat construction you would know that this is nothing even remotely similar to stitch and glue, you can not successfully glass any wood, even with epoxy which is most likely what was used and there are no esters in epoxy either. there were many species of mahogany still available in 1981 when the boat in question was built, in fact we built a 64ft ketch in 1978-80 of strip planked Honduras mahogany in Minnesota. Phillipine mahogany, while no a true mahogany as you say was used in thousands of boat such as Grand Banks trawlers and Chris Craft and other production wooden boats in the US and while not very resistant to rot it worked quite well with reasonable maintainance even without the use of epoxy. 50 year old Chris Craft are not uncommon. Unfortunatly fiberglass boats have proven to also need a lot of maintainance, what, with rotted out core (wood) osmosis etc we are very often doing maintainance work on glass boats that exceed the boats market value. I do agree that boats like the op is looking at are best left to knowlegable people or at least someone who is willing to aquire the knowledge.
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Old 31-01-2016, 14:05   #47
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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Originally Posted by clockwork orange View Post
American by chance? If you had actually read the first post the op clearly described the boats construction as strip planked sheathed in glass from new, if you knew anything about wooden boat construction you would know that this is nothing even remotely similar to stitch and glue, you can not successfully glass any wood, even with epoxy which is most likely what was used and there are no esters in epoxy either. there were many species of mahogany still available in 1981 when the boat in question was built, in fact we built a 64ft ketch in 1978-80 of strip planked Honduras mahogany in Minnesota. Phillipine mahogany, while no a true mahogany as you say was used in thousands of boat such as Grand Banks trawlers and Chris Craft and other production wooden boats in the US and while not very resistant to rot it worked quite well with reasonable maintainance even without the use of epoxy. 50 year old Chris Craft are not uncommon. Unfortunatly fiberglass boats have proven to also need a lot of maintainance, what, with rotted out core (wood) osmosis etc we are very often doing maintainance work on glass boats that exceed the boats market value. I do agree that boats like the op is looking at are best left to knowlegable people or at least someone who is willing to aquire the knowledge.
You and I may be on the same page. I am not sure epoxy had come into it's own then. Working by the planking but the GRP won't work, so a thin skin of glass isn't the aswer. On the other hand I made friends with a couple with a 50' 1917 Trumpy which had been glassed. Obvious not when she was new.
It was basically a house boat and kept the water out.

I guess it is what your intended use is.

If someone comes across the Tramp, with Suzy and Terry down in Key West I would enjoy some feedback. TY
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Old 31-01-2016, 14:20   #48
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

I have been using WEST epoxy since the mid '70's, an era of rapid growth in epoxy/wood construction. So it would not be a huge leap to speculate that some type of epoxy glue was used on this vessel.
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Old 31-01-2016, 14:41   #49
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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I have been using WEST epoxy since the mid '70's, an era of rapid growth in epoxy/wood construction. So it would not be a huge leap to speculate that some type of epoxy glue was used on this vessel.
Interesting I didn't think West system had been around that long. I could just be I have lost an account of time. In retrospect the two West tris I had may have been predated that. My concern with the planking is it may work. Plywood is stable. I guess if the planking was well glued it may be aces.
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Old 31-01-2016, 14:45   #50
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

@nortonscove: Poking with a pocket knife... of course. KISS

@clockwork orange: She's called a Pacific 42, but does not have a lot of resemblance with the Pacific 38. That was solid fibreglass as far as I know. I wonder why he decided to change to glassed over mahogany for the Pacific 42. Maybe because of the design? - center cockpit, high freeboard

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101--a simple Google search would have provided you with basic information. Do your proper due diligence. There must be much more info available to you, locally....
Thanks for the link. I have seen that website. As mentioned I have even tracked down Allan's son and met him a few weeks ago to discuss the boat. But he now works as a builder of houses. Although he remembers the boat he was not directly involved in building it and the yard doesn't exist anymore. The boat is a one-of design, so no way of talking to other owners of the same design, either.

Getting all these great and insightful comments from this forum is part of my due diligence.

BTW: Still trying to confirm with him whether they did in fact use epoxy and whether the material was fibreglass or dynel.
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Old 31-01-2016, 15:22   #51
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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...I wonder why he decided to change to glassed over mahogany for the Pacific 42...The boat is a one-of design...
You have answered your own question--because it was a one-off. And so they didn't have a mold.
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Old 31-01-2016, 16:46   #52
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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You have answered your own question--because it was a one-off. And so they didn't have a mold.
Yes, of course. That makes sense.
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Old 31-01-2016, 17:57   #53
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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American by chance? If you had actually read the first post the op clearly described the boats construction as strip planked sheathed in glass from new, if you knew anything about wooden boat construction you would know that this is nothing even remotely similar to stitch and glue, you can not successfully glass any wood, even with epoxy which is most likely what was used and there are no esters in epoxy either. there were many species of mahogany still available in 1981 when the boat in question was built, in fact we built a 64ft ketch in 1978-80 of strip planked Honduras mahogany in Minnesota. Phillipine mahogany, while no a true mahogany as you say was used in thousands of boat such as Grand Banks trawlers and Chris Craft and other production wooden boats in the US and while not very resistant to rot it worked quite well with reasonable maintainance even without the use of epoxy. 50 year old Chris Craft are not uncommon. Unfortunatly fiberglass boats have proven to also need a lot of maintainance, what, with rotted out core (wood) osmosis etc we are very often doing maintainance work on glass boats that exceed the boats market value. I do agree that boats like the op is looking at are best left to knowlegable people or at least someone who is willing to aquire the knowledge.
Yes, very much American. Proud of it, thank you. As you may be aware, a lot of OPs tend to use terms loosely regarding how their boats are constructed. Should assume little unless the OP clarifies exactly how their boat is constructed. Most folks have no idea about the difference between sheathing vs. saturation techniques or between marine ply and regular plywoods. As far as the old wooden Grand Banks, unless they have been meticulously maintained, they become rotting messes rather quickly. Wooden boats that rely on plywood really need to be constantly maintained or provided an impervious barrier. Better the boat built with solid wood. Most folks nowadays have no skills to maintain wooden boats, and in many cases not even fiberglass boats.
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Old 31-01-2016, 20:10   #54
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

Epoxy on strip plank is good IF it is done both sides. That is' fully encapsulated'. If not done on the inside as well be very careful. Stripping back to the glass at strategic places for inspection would be mandatory. This is also the only way to see if it's polyester or epoxy. Rainwater on the inside of glassed wood has destroyed more hulls than seawater has
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Old 31-01-2016, 21:18   #55
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

I would still put some emphasis on resale. While well done can be a sturdy and reliable way to build, perception is reality and even down under, I would expect many buyers to shy away from a wood boat. There may be the exception that sells for prices similar to fiberglass boats (in similar condition) I would give you 10-1 odds most sell for less.
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Old 31-01-2016, 22:10   #56
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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Interesting I didn't think West system had been around that long. I could just be I have lost an account of time. In retrospect the two West tris I had may have been predated that. My concern with the planking is it may work. Plywood is stable. I guess if the planking was well glued it may be aces.
Guys, not every boat built with epoxy is built with west system brand epoxy. While The Gougeons are generally credited with introducing epoxy to the American boat building community, probably around the late 60s or early seventies it had been in common use in other parts of the world including New Zealand and Australia for several decades before that which is why I would be surprised if this boat was sheathed with anything else. Edge glued and nailed strip planked boats do not "work" like a carvel planked boat, they are completely different. You are mixing up technologies.
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Old 01-02-2016, 16:08   #57
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

Forget about all the talk of epoxy encapsulated. That is done when using soft wood and is totally irrelevant for a hardwood like mahogany. Epoxy will stick to mahogany, but it wonít soak into it. Alan Smith was a master craftsman who built boats to last, and if itís the boat I think it is, itís built like the proverbial brick outhouse. The mahogany will be machined concave/convex to give a good join, I donít know (but I would bet) that she is glued with resorcinal glue. She is most likely screwed with SB screws, not nailed as that was the normal method for a quality build at the time. The exterior will be coated with glass and epoxy for cosmetic reasons only, all the strength comes from the interior bulkheads, frames, and ribs which will be screwed and glued. Floor timbers and bulkheads at the mast most likely through bolted with SB or copper. The interior most likely painted with the good old red lead primer and a lighter colour over the top.
Alan Smith wouldnít have used a poor grade of timber, he would have used quality timber that wonít rot, and mahogany is very rot and insect resistant. I would bet on her lasting for many years with nothing more than an occasional paint job required, the hull will be almost bullet proof if you hit something, and she will never get osmosis.
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Old 01-02-2016, 16:16   #58
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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Forget about all the talk of epoxy encapsulated. That is done when using soft wood and is totally irrelevant for a hardwood like mahogany. Epoxy will stick to mahogany, but it wonít soak into it. Alan Smith was a master craftsman who built boats to last, and if itís the boat I think it is, itís built like the proverbial brick outhouse. The mahogany will be machined concave/convex to give a good join, I donít know (but I would bet) that she is glued with resorcinal glue. She is most likely screwed with SB screws, not nailed as that was the normal method for a quality build at the time. The exterior will be coated with glass and epoxy for cosmetic reasons only, all the strength comes from the interior bulkheads, frames, and ribs which will be screwed and glued. Floor timbers and bulkheads at the mast most likely through bolted with SB or copper. The interior most likely painted with the good old red lead primer and a lighter colour over the top.
Alan Smith wouldnít have used a poor grade of timber, he would have used quality timber that wonít rot, and mahogany is very rot and insect resistant. I would bet on her lasting for many years with nothing more than an occasional paint job required, the hull will be almost bullet proof if you hit something, and she will never get osmosis.
Most "mahogany" is not mahogany; and most of that is in the form of plywood with mahogany facing. A lot of small craft were built from the 1880s to the 1970s with mahogany ply bows, trim, and seats. Most were just coated with varnish, which if renewed, will keep the wood perfectly fine. Some folks started covering the wood with various esters to improve on durability. Covering it with glass works, but does nothing for aesthetics.
Pure hardwood mahogany planks are rare, expensive, and a pain to work with.
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Old 01-02-2016, 16:56   #59
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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... Alan Smith was a master craftsman who built boats to last, and if itís the boat I think it is, itís built like the proverbial brick outhouse. The mahogany will be machined concave/convex to give a good join,
Yes, that's correct as far as I know. (The boat's name is Cadiz.)

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I donít know (but I would bet) that she is glued with resorcinal glue. She is most likely screwed with SB screws, not nailed as that was the normal method for a quality build at the time.
Yes, that's what it actually said in the advert: "screwed". But his son then told me that it was probably nailed. So maybe the advert is correct after all.

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Alan Smith wouldnít have used a poor grade of timber, he would have used quality timber that wonít rot, and mahogany is very rot and insect resistant. I would bet on her lasting for many years with nothing more than an occasional paint job required, the hull will be almost bullet proof if you hit something, and she will never get osmosis.
Wow, that's an endorsement! You are not by any chance getting any commission from the agent?

Over the last few days reading all these comments I already flipped so many times from absolutely not wasting any more time on this boat to pretty much rushing in and signing the purchase cheque...
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Old 01-02-2016, 17:55   #60
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Re: Would you buy it? Fibreglass over Mahogany

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Thanks Paul (and ozskipper),

Your comments made me smile...

and worry at the same time...

I think somewhere (maybe even on this forum) I read "You buy a plastic boat if you love sailing, you buy a wooden boat if you like maintenance" or something along those lines.

Maybe a wooden boat is better for a hobbie during retirement rather than a boat to live on and go cruising?

Really appreciate all the great feedback from everyone on this topic!
Don't sweat it, it can happen with plastic too.

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Love at first sight. It's never 'just a boat' is it? Luckily my brain beat my heart.

I'm hoping it didn't go up in smoke with those other boats at Cowes.
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