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Old 14-04-2006, 09:03   #1
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Windless Wiring Question

Ok another dumb question. I am installing my Simpson Lawrence Sprint 600 Vertical windless, the instruction say if the total run of wire is less than 50 feet use #8 (10mm) wire if more than 50 feet use #6 (16mm) wire. My run is such that I could use #8 but decided to use #6 based on threads I have read in the past. Now the question, How do I connect the Breaker/Isolator and Control Switch? The terminals for the #6 wire are way bigger then connection terminals on the switch and breaker.

While I am at it I am connecting the one switch at the helm that came with the windless, I would like to add foot switches on the fore deck close to the windless however Simpson Lawernce say I should buy Series Control bos for $139. Couldn't I use two single pole doulbe throw foot switches and reverse the polirity on one of them?

As always all help is greatly appritiated (bad spelling)!

Just as a note, it took me a week to get the courage to cut a hole in my fore deck!

Fair Winds,
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Old 14-04-2006, 09:13   #2
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To add to my second qustion, "and connect them in paralell to the switch at the helm"

thanks,
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Old 14-04-2006, 09:46   #3
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Remember that wire runs include both directions.

If you need to fit larger gauge wire into smaller terminal openings on the gear, you can get reducers... even made with gold plating from audio shops. They use mega gauge wires all the time. I had the issue with an inverter... could not attache the larger wire without the reducer.
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Old 14-04-2006, 22:31   #4
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You should be running much smaller wire to your control switches, and then to your control box. Your #6 wire should run from a high amperage breaker fed from your main bus to the control box and then to the windlass. Blue Sea sells high amerage breakers made for the purpose.

All connections in your #6 cabling should use the correct size ring connector for your breaker, control box and windlass.

Good luck.
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Old 14-04-2006, 22:33   #5
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To be clear, you don't want the current needed by your windlass to have to pass through your switches. You would need very large switches and have to run your heavy cable up to your helm etc...noooo...
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Old 15-04-2006, 19:19   #6
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Thanks all for the help. DeepFrz what size wire do I run to the switch at the hem. The switch is between the breaker and Windless. So I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.

Thanks,
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Old 16-04-2006, 04:00   #7
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The Helm “Up-Dn” Switch (and bow foot switches) is/are wired from the Control Box with #14AWG Wire. These wires only control the solenoid coil, and carry a low control current.

The Control Box is between the Cct. Breaker and the Windlass, and is wired with heavy* power cables. I’ll recommend appropriate minimum cable sizes, if you’ll advise the distances or cable lengths (cable lengths A, B, C, D, & E in the manual, pg 13*) between the:
1. Battery and Breaker (A)
2. Breaker & Control Box (B)
3. Battery & Control Box (E)
4. Control Box & Windlass (C & D)

* Depending upon lengths, I suspect that #8 or #6 may be too small.
Assuming you’ve chosen an appropriate windlass for your boat (35 Ft or less), and if the Battery is near the engine, the Breaker within 5 Ft, and the Control Box 20 Ft away at the bow, within 5 Ft of the Windlass - you might have cable lengths of:
5' (A) + 25 Ft (B) + 5' (C) + 5'(D) + 25' (E) = 70 Ft overall.
40 Amps at 70 Foot cable length would require #1/0 Power Cables for 5% Vd**, or #2 AWG cables for a more realistic 7% Vd**.
You might have over 15% Vd** using #6 AWG cables.

**Vd is Voltage Drop - 10% is the maximum permitted, and less is better. I normally try for about 6.0 - 7.5% on Windlass’.


Pages 11, 12, & 13 of the Simpson Lawrence “Sprint 600" Owner’s Manual have clear wiring diagrams:
Goto LEWMAR (Simpson Lawrence) Support page: http://en.lewmar.com/support/index.aspp
Select Sprint 600 Instructions.

Gord
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Old 16-04-2006, 10:14   #8
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Well said Gord, thank you.

Longhair,
Well, as I mentioned, you would need some very large switchs to handle the current needed for your windlass. Better to let the control box handle the heavy loads and use control wiring for the switching.

But follow Gord's advice and make sure things are sized correctly. You don't want to have a windlass failure some time when you are backing up to a concrete wall over in Cozumel when the mooring chain has been ripped out and there is a swell running in the basin and all the professional fishing captains are standing there watching and ... oops, well that is another story <gr>

Good luck...
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Old 16-04-2006, 16:42   #9
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Gord Thanks for the great advice. My boat is 33' and the A B C D E is about 60'. The diagraqm in the manual only said to use wire of either #6 or #8. I do not have a control box I have is the up/down switch and a breaker, so it seems that the current will flow through the entire circut, the switch is a DPDT and just reverse the current on one side.

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matt
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Old 17-04-2006, 04:04   #10
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The DPDT Reversing Switch carries the full current of the Windlass Motor, and is wired in series between the Breaker & motor. See page 12, in the Sprint manual.

Adding a second (parallel) switch (or set of Up-Dn switches) is not practical (*1), unless you add the Control Box (reversing solenoid), which is illustrated on page 13 of the manual. Note that the switch control wires, utilizing the Control Box, are #14 AWG, carrying only a small coil current. Also note, that the “Up-Dn” switches are conventional Momentary Contact “On-Off” switches (cheaper than the DPDT Reversing Switch).

(*1) If your existing helm “Up-Down” DPDT Switch is a Momentary Contact type (Spring return to “Off”), as it should be, you would have to run a second set of #6 (or #4) power cables from the Breaker to the second Switch (at the bow).

#6AWG cable, carrying 40A over 60Ft total cable length will yield about 10% Voltage Drop, which is generally considered “minimally acceptable”.
I prefer to design high-power windlass circuits to a maximum of 6 or 7% Vd. In your case, #4 AWG Copper (the next larger size cable), would yield about 5.5% Vd. I’d have designed it using #4 AWG, but don’t worry about using #6 AWG, with your engine (alternator) running.

If you’re still uncertain, I’ll post diagrams, when the Photo Album is back up (later this week?).

HTH,
Gord
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Old 17-04-2006, 19:59   #11
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Gord, Thanks I think I have it. It sound as if the $139 bucks for a control box is not bad considering the cost of the wire and terminals. Does any one know the best place to buy wire that size in the Tampa Area.

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Old 18-04-2006, 03:39   #12
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Old 18-04-2006, 19:47   #13
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Thanks Gordy,

It took me awhile but think I understand what you have been telling me.

Bottom line is the motor on my windless needs be as close as it can to 12V.
Voltage drop = heat (resistance goes up)
Heat = wear on my motor
Wear on my motor = smaller wallet & my time repairing and less time Sailing.

Thanks Again,
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Old 20-04-2006, 12:39   #14
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Longhair-
I'd side with Gord on using #4AWG cable for the power runs. Cheaping out on cable will come back to haunt you. Also note, "AWG" cable sizes and "SAE" (automotive) cable sizes are not the same, a #4AWG cable is as heavy as a #2SAE cable would be. To keep things simple, just stick to AWG rated cables.
"Battery cable" or "Type 3 Machine Cable" are almost identical, either one will work well. But avoid bargains (like welding cable) which use different strand sizes, they will not hold up as well even if the capacity is similar.
You also want to make sure you get FULLY TINNED cable, anything not tinned in boat wiring will punk out and come back to bite you. Get used to paying the piper, the good stuff pays off in the long run. And when it comes time to have cable lugs or other end fittings put on the cables? Again, have it done properly, swaged properly not just smashed in a vice. That usually means cutting the cables, checking the run, and then taking them out for the lugs to be put on. But a properly swaged lug will last forever. Especially if you add liquid vinyl (tool dip, liquid lectric, etc.) over the end of the cable, to seal it to the lug.
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Old 20-04-2006, 13:56   #15
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Actually Matt, the one really big advantage with a DC motor, is with voltage drop, you don't get more heat. An AC motor you do. The AC motor is trying to keep up with athe sine wave, if voltage drops, then the result is more current is drawn which gets into a nasty cycle and issue. With DC, it is pure and simple and when you have a voltage drop, you have less work done. That's the issue you are wanting to protect yourself from. You want the winch to do work, not stall when you need the power the most. It is better to put all the work into the motor than to lose it as heat in a cable.
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