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Old 20-08-2012, 20:55   #16
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

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I believe that's possible. But without trying to make this political, I think the powers that be would have to be eliminated first There's a reason we don't all drive electric cars, have single solar cells that can power a house, carry cell phones that charge over the cell signal, and about a million other incredible technologies. There's just too much money left to be had in old tech.

I truly hope you're right and I'm wrong...
Old money has never been able to hold back the push of technology.

The reason we don't have the things you list is because they are extremely difficult technologies (the latter probably impossible). After decades of stalled progress, a couple of them are starting to show progress thanks to nanotech, but don't expect solar houses for many decades. Batteries have shown a few minor breakthroughs lately, but nothing to make me believe that any big earthshaking advances are around the corner. Medicine (personalized genetic nanorobotic cures), materials (nanotech), and manufacturing (Open source 3D Printing) will be unrecognizable two decades from now, though.

[I shouldn't have to include the disclaimer that all my posts in this thread are, of course, my wild speculation. But I am a science and tech addict who reads every article on these subjects that I can find, and after three decades of obsession I can usually recognize the patterns just before they go mainstream.]
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Old 20-08-2012, 21:00   #17
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

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The technology for 3D printing is limited to plastics at the moment and I would guess for a fairly long time to come.

I could see printing cement but it would take several extra steps to place it, wet it and compact it in place. Printing a grout (cement and sand) mixture would be a bit more complex but probably doable. Printing an actual concrete (cement, sand and gravel) would be exceedingly complex.

Printing ferrocement would be impossible, printing the metal parts would be prohibitively energy expensive compared to normal wire production and the heat from that printing process would damage the cementicious portion of the printing. It might be possible to print cement around an existing wire shell but it would be difficult to get the the cement paste into all the interstitial spaces between closely spaced wires at laps and wire junctions.

For the same reason it would be difficult unto impossible to print wires with insulation on them already in conduits.

This is not to say that major portions of a boat could not be printed, that seems much more achievable in the near term.
Why do you think that printing cement will have anything to do with a "wet" state? Plastics are a petroleum product. To print plastic do you think it is necessary to first print crude oil? I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if the structure of the end product is known, the product can be printed given the appropriate raw materials with which to print from.

As far as your statement about 3D printing being limited to plastics at this time, well, that is just plain wrong.

According to ExplainingTheFuture.com:
"At present, SLS 3D printers can output objects using a wide range of powdered materials. These include wax, polystyrene, nylon, glass, ceramics, stainless steel, titanium, aluminium and various alloys including cobalt chrome."

Regarding printing wire in insulation, my statement was based on current technology that was referenced in a magazine article. I will try to find it tomorrow. "Impossible"....I disagree.
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Old 20-08-2012, 21:06   #18
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

Like I said, I hope you're right.
But I still think your underestimating the power of industry. Computers where completely different. They were new technology, but it was so entirely new that a whole new industry, plus a few thousand other new industries, were founded upon their invention...

Computers enhanced existing industries, but they also created an entire new world of industry because they require vast amounts of materials and production.

What you're talking about is changing existing industries to a point of rendering the majority of each, obsolete. That's a different ballgame all together.

If people can't get jobs in these industries, there won't be anyone to buy the products they produce. Executives know this very well (because it happened before after the computer boom)... We live in a consumer based economy (worldwide). If everyone could print out their own computers (or pretty much anything), 3 billion people would die from starvation... The value of worker-bees will never be obsolete
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Old 20-08-2012, 21:16   #19
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

I've read about this technology - wouldn't want to guess a timeframe for it to be commonplace but anything is possible. One of the cool features of this technology is the possibility of placing objects within objects where it would previously have been physically impossible to locate them. So you think your engine room access is difficult now? Just wait until some engineer figures out that he can print an engine into a space where it can never come out of unless you cut it into bits.
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Old 20-08-2012, 21:31   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy
Like I said, I hope you're right.
But I still think your underestimating the power of industry. Computers where completely different. They were new technology, but it was so entirely new that a whole new industry, plus a few thousand other new industries, were founded upon their invention...

Computers enhanced existing industries, but they also created an entire new world of industry because they require vast amounts of materials and production.

What you're talking about is changing existing industries to a point of rendering the majority of each, obsolete. That's a different ballgame all together.

If people can't get jobs in these industries, there won't be anyone to buy the products they produce. Executives know this very well (because it happened before after the computer boom)... We live in a consumer based economy (worldwide). If everyone could print out their own computers (or pretty much anything), 3 billion people would die from starvation... The value of worker-bees will never be obsolete
No this is not the case. Each arrival of a truly significant technology, has resulted in the creation of new jobs and processes to allow the absorption of older technologies are the people they employed.

Your comments were the same type of thing said when the spinning Jenny was introduced, the rail network , over the canals etc. yet each advance generated a new paradigm and with it new employment and growth opportunities.

Once a technology delivers genuine advance , it rapidly outstrips the exists processes, irrespective of how much " big business" was involved in them, witness the decline of massive railway companies and steamship companies , replaced by even bigger car companies and aircraft companies.

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Old 20-08-2012, 21:38   #21
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

3D printing for now and thru the rest of my life will be a process reserved for low volume items in plastics. Printing 50 pieces for sale at a $20 each is economical, you can't amortize the molding equipment costs when you are only making 50 pieces. But when you need 50,000 pieces the costs of the injection molding equipment are spread out to the point that you are looking at costs of a $1 or less. The 3D printer purchase and upkeep and replacement will eat up any profits. The feed materials will likely be more expensive too since the printer requires the plastics be delivered in the form of weedwacker like cord. The more complex the shape of the piece the more pieces the printer can make before molding becomes cheaper.

No, printers will not be able to print 'Old' or already set cement. Cement, grout and concrete do not dry like solvent paints, they go off chemically like epoxy or polyester. In this case the water is one of the chemical ingredients. This is a slight simplification since extra water is required to get the cement/... to have a workable consistency so in that sense they do dry, but the setting/strengthening process is a chemical process not a drying one.

While you could mix set cement/... in a plastic matrix, why would you, you would be defeating the one advantage of the concrete, it's cheap.
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Old 20-08-2012, 21:45   #22
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

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The difference is the moisture content. Concrete continues to dry for a very long time. "Old" concrete will be just as easy to print as "new" concrete.

In regards to preaching to the choir, I don't try to preach to anyone. I was attempting to express where this technology will be going. The day will come that stores will be obsolete and instead, consumers will have printers to download files to print out consumer goods.

Of course, this is only my opinion.
Sorry but you have triggered my B/S meter.

It is not the drying of concrete that gives it strength; it is the curing being the establishment of chemical bonds that provides strength. There are basically 4 different alumina compounds in cement and it is the difference in the ratios that affect the different curing rates between OPC (ordinary Portland cement) RHPC and URHPC. In the case of OPC it achieves 2/3 0f it 28 day strength in 7 days and the 28 day strength is 2/3 of its final strength nominally at 1 year. RHPC normally achieves the 7 day strength in 1 day.

The design of a strong cement provides for an even coating of cement around all the particles and the strength comes from the sand (where) use and aggregates. The “drying” is where the water is combined in to the cement to form the concrete (at a ratio of about 30% of the weight of cement. Water in addition does in fact evaporate leaving voids reducing strength. For example in a 1:2:4 mix increasing the water ratio (to the cement) to 70% reduces the final strength by about 30%.

One of the clearest indication that it is not drying that gives strength is when test blocks are made in the civil engineering industry they are normally stored in tanks of water at about 70 F prior to testing.

The fallacies about concrete are similar in many ways to the one in the early days of FG that leads to resin rich hull being weaker than similar dimensioned resin boats that have just enough resin to bond the fibre together.
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Old 20-08-2012, 21:50   #23
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

I can totally see this tech being used to colonize the Moon or Mars for example.
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Old 20-08-2012, 21:51   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie
3D printing for now and thru the rest of my life will be a process reserved for low volume items in plastics. Printing 50 pieces for sale at a $20 each is economical, you can't amortize the molding equipment costs when you are only making 50 pieces. But when you need 50,000 pieces the costs of the injection molding equipment are spread out to the point that you are looking at costs of a $1 or less. The 3D printer purchase and upkeep and replacement will eat up any profits. The feed materials will likely be more expensive too since the printer requires the plastics be delivered in the form of weedwacker like cord. The more complex the shape of the piece the more pieces the printer can make before molding becomes cheaper.

No, printers will not be able to print 'Old' or already set cement. Cement, grout and concrete do not dry like solvent paints, they go off chemically like epoxy or polyester. In this case the water is one of the chemical ingredients. This is a slight simplification since extra water is required to get the cement/... to have a workable consistency so in that sense they do dry, but the setting/strengthening process is a chemical process not a drying one.

While you could mix set cement/... in a plastic matrix, why would you, you would be defeating the one advantage of the concrete, it's cheap.
And of course " I think there is a world market for perhaps 5 computers" !!!
Or

" an amazing invention, but who would ever want to use one " ( invention of the telephone)


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Old 20-08-2012, 22:13   #25
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

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Originally Posted by Anonymous7500 View Post
Why do you think that printing cement will have anything to do with a "wet" state? Plastics are a petroleum product. To print plastic do you think it is necessary to first print crude oil? I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if the structure of the end product is known, the product can be printed given the appropriate raw materials with which to print from.

As far as your statement about 3D printing being limited to plastics at this time, well, that is just plain wrong.

According to ExplainingTheFuture.com:
"At present, SLS 3D printers can output objects using a wide range of powdered materials. These include wax, polystyrene, nylon, glass, ceramics, stainless steel, titanium, aluminium and various alloys including cobalt chrome."

Regarding printing wire in insulation, my statement was based on current technology that was referenced in a magazine article. I will try to find it tomorrow. "Impossible"....I disagree.
The oils are processed into the plastic feed stocks which are then printed, molded, rotomolded, whatever into shape. For plastics the 3D process involves placing the heated plastic "pixels" in position and allowing it to cool or adding a layer of plastic, heating it where you want it solidify then allowing it to cool.

Cement requires a 'Wet' period to solidify. Once it is solid, it doesn't go back. Just putting two solid pieces of cement on each other will not cause them to become one. With thermo-plastics it is the heat that allows the 'Pixels' to melt together, there is no similar process for cement.

I was incorrect about 3D not working with metal, but correct about not being able to make a heterogeneous object, only homogeneous objects are possible. So while you might be able to print all the pieces for a car, you would then have to assemble it.

Also surface texture precludes parts with tight tolerances from being printed, parts like cylinders and pistons.
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Old 20-08-2012, 22:47   #26
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Re: Will this change the boating industry

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