Where to refit? (Baltic vs Eastern Med)

[GTom]

I am thinking on buying my first boat (one of the ~40 years old scandinavian classics - no solid decision yet which one) in the Baltic. Almost certain I'll have to do major maintenance, maybe GRP, rigging and internal woodwork.

The boat will eventually sail in the Med (Greece, Turkey, Croatia) as well. Where should it be most economical to get quality work? I know Turkey is good for the Med, but shall I expect a similar/cheaper bill in the Eastern Baltic (Estonia, etc...) for quality work? What about the VAT-free Åland?

[svrodeorm]

Thats a rather sweeping question, or a huge subjekt...but since i am Swedish i can at least filll in with something for you, though i May be slightly partisan


Scandinavian boats are in general well built and good performers. Due to the fact that most, if not all spend the winter off-season on the hard, virtually between the "fridge and freezer" depending on location they are also usually in very good condition. A 40 year old boat in Sweden or Finland would in my opinion mre often than not be in better (at least cosmetically) shape than a 15 year old boat in the tropics. Ok, I may exaggerate a year or two

As for Estonia, there are a few yards building there ( outsourced from Swe mostly) so the knowledge is there but not perhaps as well spread yet. I had to replace the engine back in Estonia in 2008, since the old one blew the head and was simply too rusty exteriorly to work on. This was a nightmare, took over a month and parts of the installation had to be redone/corrected once I was back in Sweden. They may have improved since then I hope.

I have no experience from the eastern Med except a week as skipper on a charter bait in Croatia, also in 2008. Beautiful archipelago, terribly expensive but luxurious marinas and very boring sailing. Hardly any wind at all, all those charter boats had astonishing high engine hours.

In the western Med, Algarve is good both on therms of price and quality, and also Spain east of Gibraltar Strait.

Good luck with your search, personally I'd like to own a ~ 1970 vintage Swan at some point.

[GTom]

Oh, buying will definitely happen in the Baltic (N-Germany, Scandinavia), mostly because of the reasons you mentioned (half the stress, quality built boats). The ideal place for refit is in question (obviously the boat has to be capable to sail down). Speaking of Baltic, there is Poland too - quite a homework I have it seems...

Right, forgot Portugal, heard they have great workshops too.

[szkutnik]

Try here:
yacht-building.pl

high quality work for a moderate price

[Kenomac]

Italy.

[N4585K]

Consider Malta. Knowledgeable, skilled workforce and fair pricing...

[GTom]

Coming back to my "forgotten" thread: is it correct, that Åland is VAT-free? Are there any good boat yards there?

[Pete7]

I would be surprised if the range of items you will want are available at sensible prices. Certainly I thought Germany and Norway expensive when I lived there and I was able to get the German Mehrwertsteuer (VAT) at 15% off.

I would be tempted to do it in three parts. A quick make over to ensure she is safe to move with things like rigging checks and clean water tanks etc.

Then move her to the UK were you are on home ground I think, for purchasing stuff like electronics. A trip to the Channel Islands could pay for itself several times over if you want a new anchor and electronics etc. Sails ordered in the UK and shipped out to you in the CIs would also be a good wheeze to save the VAT.

Finally, stuff that is labour intensive that you don't want to do yourself like anitfoul stripping, sanding and polishing woodwork, then save these for locations with cheap labour. Greece / Turkey etc.

Pete

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I would be surprised if the range of items you will want are available at sensible prices. Certainly I thought Germany and Norway expensive when I lived there and I was able to get the German Mehrwertsteuer (VAT) at 15% off.

I would be tempted to do it in three parts. A quick make over to ensure she is safe to move with things like rigging checks and clean water tanks etc.

Then move her to the UK were you are on home ground I think, for purchasing stuff like electronics. A trip to the Channel Islands could pay for itself several times over if you want a new anchor and electronics etc. Sails ordered in the UK and shipped out to you in the CIs would also be a good wheeze to save the VAT.

Finally, stuff that is labour intensive that you don't want to do yourself like anitfoul stripping, sanding and polishing woodwork, then save these for locations with cheap labour. Greece / Turkey etc.

Pete

This.

There's no single answer to this.

The Baltic is generally expensive. Estonia is tempting with very reasonable labor costs and highly educated population, but the skills are just not there. The few skilled craftsman there are charge a big premium because there are few of them.

Finland is crazy expensive and surprisingly poor supply of parts and components (surprising because a lot of good boats are built in Finland).

Germany would be the best place in the Baltic.

But if you have something very labor intensive, Turkey is going to be by far the best place in terms of cost/quality ratio. Turkey has a highly developed yachting industry and all the trades are there, so not only labor intensive but skills- and quality-intensive work will be pretty good there.

I guess the UK is going to be the best place for anything complex or technological. The UK is the world's center of the yachting industry with a large proportion of parts and components made there, and with the biggest concentration of trades and skills of anywhere. There is such a big offer that costs are generally reasonable, especially on the Isle of Wight. Projects will not be delayed for lack of parts, materials or components -- everything is available right there. What percentage of the world-wide yachting industry is located not just in the UK, but just in the Solent area? It's staggering. I guess probably 90% of all parts and equipment for yachts you buy anywhere in Europe, will be shipped out of a warehouse in the Solent area. I pay 25 pounds per hour for a very good shipwright; and on the Island at least it's hard to find anyone charging more than 50, so the cost is very reasonable.

[GTom]

Thanks for the hint regarding Finland, I made the (apparently false) assumption that things get cheaper if we go East. Turkey is a very long shot, probably years away at my pace from the Baltic, I'll see how long certain things can wait. One of the most urgent big things is that I need* a new engine, surprisingly I found a Swedish distributor cheaper than the German one (Solé diesel).

The rest is mostly cosmetics, I think I'll give a try to sand and paint the bottom myself.

*that might be an independent topic, but I don't have much fate in a rusty 40years old Volvo...

[B_Hunter45]

Turkey is cheap, but my father says that he is not rich enough to buy cheap stuff .

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GTom

Thanks for the hint regarding Finland, I made the (apparently false) assumption that things get cheaper if we go East.

Hah, if you want to find out about EXPENSIVE, just keep on going to Russia! East is definitely not cheaper!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by B_Hunter45

Turkey is cheap, but my father says that he is not rich enough to buy cheap stuff .

Some of the craftsmanship is better than anything, at any price, elsewhere!

Turkey has a very highly developed yachting industry and lots of very high quality trades. Not all of the work is good, of course, but in my experience, the percentage of really bad work is lower than in the States, for example.