When to give up?

[Oceansandmts]

My son's 26' schooner had the same problem with internal scrap steel/concrete ballast, except that it was even worse. The fiberglass covering it on the inside was very poorly done, so the ballast got wet often. We injected epoxy into all known voids, added several layers of glass to the outside of the hull from bow to stern to halfway up to the waterline since the original glass was quite thin and had deteriorated, glassed over the inside from bow to stern of the ballast, and, since we are both a little crazy, rebuilt the interior while extending the cabin a foot and a half to the stern.

I don't even want to think of the hours of work, but it was tolerable as it was spread out over six or seven years (I know, I know, its a long time to be without a boat). We both like to work on boats and putter around, which also helped.

Was it worth it? Considering that one forgets the hard work as time goes by, and will always have the beautiful result, YES, it was worth it. It helps a lot that this schooner is a rare and beautiful boat that is a lot of fun to sail.

So if the boat will be worth it, if you like to putter around with boats and if you have the time; go for it. Otherwise, I understand it is a buyer's market; you could go look at a few boats for sale to help you answer the question of whether to continue fixing this one or buy another. Don't forget that buying another boat may expose you to a whole new set of problems.

[rebel heart]

That's a really pretty boat there.

[Oceansandmts]

Thanks, its a Van Dyne Tancook Whaler, about 25 - 30 yrs old. When my son earned his first $ in high school, he bought it instead of a car, sailed it for a summer or two and then started renovations/restorations that lasted about 8 years. We finally go it back on the water last summer. We still need to paint the topsides.

Fair winds

[44'cruisingcat]

I've heard of people mixing lead shot with resin, and pouring that into the keel. Won't be as risky as pouring molten lead in, but a bit more expensive. If you use epoxy resin get the slowest hardner you can find, and do it in stages. Epoxy should bond the lead in pretty well though.

[cooper]

It is true BUT...we are talking ballast. The weight for volume of lead shot is quite poor. A large amount of voids. Flat sheets is better. molten is obviously a crapy and dangerous job but best in terms of weight down low. It is worth doing comparisons. solid and I do mean SOLID steel can work out quite comparable to loose lead. As someone who has poured lead keels I would not recommend it unless you take all due precautions. But if you want the weight down low and space for tankage, there is no comparison. As an aside...regardless of what you use. IF your ballast is well held in place and you lid over and use it as a diesel tank, corrosion of any kind is lessened. Just another possibility....

Welcome to the Metal Boat Society a not for profit organisation.

[Spindrift22]

Originally Posted by M-K

The boat is a Spindrift 22 which my new wife and I acquired as an economical way to try out cruising. (I dearly love being on the ocean, but had been boat-less for years, she had hardly been in a boat.) This boat has a ballasted shoal draft keel with a light centerboard and we were reasonably pleased with its performance on the few days we were able to use it.

I've discovered two structural problems with boat. One is that tensioning the rigging seems to distort the hull a bit. Setting it up in the back yard on its trailer, tensioning the rig appeared to cause the nose of the boat to pull back an inch or so from the bow stop of the trailer. Having put good tension on the upper stays and setting the lower stays just lightly finger tight, I found that then loosening the upper stays left the lower stays with a lot of tension. I surmise the hull flexed a bit. This may not be abnormal this is on this type of boat; I can ignore it, but its a nagging worry.

The real problem is that the six hundred pounds of ballast in the keel turned out to be weak cement mixed with metal shop scraps. At some point sufficient moisture got into this mixture to cause the ballast to swell (from swelling of the corroding metal or freezing, I presume) locking the centerboard solidly up and cracking the outside of the keel. Causing a bit of a leak. Lifting the boat on a travel-lift flexed the hull enough to allow the centerboard to be pried down. A bit of epoxy putty on the keel made it possible to sail for a few days, with only occassional pumping.

I have removed the cabin sole with a skill-saw and scooped six hundred pounds of soggy ballast out of the keel after softening it up with a pneumatic chisel. My thinking was to put in some new fiberglass to repair the keel, and new ballast encapsulated in resin.

Having done this much to get a view of the situation, I'm now questioning my confidence that it will be possible to adequately prepare the inside of the keel and surrounding hull to ensure that new glass will permanently bond to it. The keel's cavity around the centerboard is quite narrow. The heavy layer of glass that had covered the top of the keel and ballast and extended inside the hull has partially delaminated. I'm not sure how vital it is structurally, but I won't be able to remove all of it to get to a good surface to bond to.

Having put a great deal of labor and money (new sails, rigging, furler, hatch, woodwork) into this boat before these problems became apparent, its gut wrenching to think of throwing it away. But I need to consider the possibility that the repair of the keel could possibly fail, and wonder if enough is enough and its time to give up.

This is my first posting. Perhaps it should be in the confessional.

Hope you did not give up.

[Spindrift22]

Keel Spindrift 22 Repair
The fixed keel is cement with metal scraps instead of stones for weight. This mixture is poored into the fiberglass keel cavity that surrounds the swing keel. The manufacturer used a poor grade cement that eventually lets water in and then the cement mixture swells around the swing keel which sticks or freezes the swing keel. It is very reparable but requires some knowledge and skill in a number of areas. The boat is an incredible boat and design and well worth the repair. Here are the steps at a high level.

1. Remove interior counsole
2. Cut floor to the outside of the resealed areas in the floor and remove. Be careful not to have circular saw blade too deep our you will cut through floor and hull
3. Remove fiberglass covering over cement
4. Use an impact hammer with chisel and remove all cement and and metal bits. Later you will need to create a slury to remove old sand and cement so that you can reuse metal bits.
5. Go under boat and put 1/8” or 1/16 plywood or other material on either side of full length of keel. This will prevent new cement from expending the swing keel pocket and freezing the keel
6. Now is the time to fix any keel pocket issues and refiberglass cracks. I recommend using expoxy resin.
7. You will need to purchase 2 bags of Sika 111 Plus cement and an additive to prevent the metal bits from rusting. Mix cement, additive and 1/2 metal bits and poor into keel pocket. Note. Cement hardens fast so depending on the temperature you will need to work fast
8. Refiberglass over cement once dry and to hull
9. Expoxy tabs to floor so that when you put floor back in it is level. Expoxy floor in including crack. Sand smooth and paint.
10. Install center console
11. Sail

Other comments
1. Do not poor hot lead into keel pocket. It will light the boat on fire or mealt right through the keel pocket
2. This took me ten hours to do

[MicHughV]

having built my own boat....
some suggestions..

1. You could build some structural T-frames, the tall leg goes into the keel cavity the upper leg straddles the hull underneath the cabin sole. I'm not sure of your skills, but these can be formed out of steel, wood or a combination of both. Bond in place with fiberglass and resin. Maybe 2 or 3 if you have the space. Steel would obviously need to be painted.
2. I found a machine shop, where they had untold 44 gallon drums filled with steel punchings...it's not lead off course, but the price was "free"....each piece was about 1/4" thick or more and about the size of a 5c piece. I poured these into the keel of my boat, together with some other lead scraps and poured a two part epoxy over it to keep it all in place, and to keep the water out.

steel has the ability to throw off an incredible amount of rust....a 1" thick plate can throw off 10" or more of rust, with incredible expansive force, so must be sealed against water, moisture, etc.

if you pour concrete in there, it needs to dry....it really needs a small hole drilled into the bottom of the keel to allow water to run out. This can be patched and sealed after, but the punchings have more weight.

I also scrounged around for lead, which I melted down and formed into small ingots. It's quite a process to do. Chunks of lead can be sourced from Tire companies...as they are used to balance wheels.

600 lbs of ballast is not that much to source out.
Concrete weighs about 150 lbs per c.f.....so you would need 4 c.f. Home depot sells small bags.

Ideally, place what lead you have on the bottom of the keel and cover with concrete, but this still requires a drain hole and a coat over the top.

Just some ideas...