Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-02-2012, 14:16   #31
Registered User
 
Matt sachs's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East Tennessee
Boat: 1989 50 ft Roberts
Posts: 859
Images: 18
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

Dave, just because its not glowing red any more dosent mean its cooled off.....ask me how I learned that.
__________________

__________________
Matt sachs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 13:08   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 21
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

What about an oxyacetylene welding setup? No moisture troubles, no circuit boards to knock around, no need for electricity. Hmm...I see your boat is aluminum, maybe not the best option then.
__________________

__________________
rattleshirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 13:13   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattleshirt View Post
What about an oxyacetylene welding setup? No moisture troubles, no circuit boards to knock around, no need for electricity. Hmm...I see your boat is aluminum, maybe not the best option then.
Great if you want to cut your boat up, If a steel boat a small basic stick welder is very handy, anything that can run a 2.5/3.25 rod. BUT Aluminium is for experienced hands with good welding machines with a strong power source.

Quite honestly there's much more to worry about than having to weld your hull in some far flung anchorage.

IMHO Frank
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 17:54   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 21
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

What's wrong with the torch for welding steel? The mechanics used it for practically every piece of equipment at one place I worked. So does my Mom's husband, for that matter.
__________________
rattleshirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 18:47   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oregon
Boat: 57' Laurent Giles Yawl
Posts: 755
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

Well, some folks do weld aluminum with oxy, and it is cool to watch the poetry of motion that requires:
How good is your TIG weld? (weld strength & oxy acetylene torch welding aluminum) - YouTube

But I am happy to just use TIG. Much more mellow.
__________________
msponer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 19:51   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

One word "HEAT" you simply will buckle the hull plating badly. As for oxy welding aluminium the flux is highly acidic meaning you must wash it off afterwards or corrosion will occur. Hence TIG or Mig are the logical choices.
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 20:18   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 21
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

Hhmm....looks like I have more questions and testing for my research. Among other things I'm trying to decide what welding system to carry when we get our boat as I will go ahead and try to aquire it now. Of course, we are still deciding which boat but are set on steel. We will never be able to afford copper nickel...
__________________
rattleshirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 20:25   #38
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,150
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

I have to ask, why do you want to bring all this weight and materials on board when there are very competent aluminum welders throughout the world who do this all the time for a living?

There is a pretty good learning curve to doing good aluminum welding. It's much different that welding steel.

Aluminum boats don't need to be welded all that often either.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 21:08   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oregon
Boat: 57' Laurent Giles Yawl
Posts: 755
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

Yes, maybe I am being a bit macho. Though TIG-- that's never struck me as macho. Oxy acetylene is macho, thick leather, sweat dripping off of your face, oodles of red hot metal... And stick welding at least has smoke and huge sparks flying everywhere. TIG has always seemed a bit girly to me, completely clean, thin gloves, a tiny little spark of light... I've done it on my kitchen table.

I've evolved, over years of boat ownership, to doing pretty much everything that I can myself. Because ... other people so often disappoint. So I am concerned about finding someone good. Since I know how to weld aluminum myself, I guess it would just be especially painful to not be able to find someone who is good at it. Or pay someone who is bad at it and watch them screw up. Or wait days for someone to not show up.

So that's the main reason.

But maybe it is misguided. If finding a good aluminum welder every once in a while is as easy as finding a good diesel mechanic, no wait, that won't work, as easy as finding someone to paint the bottom, well... then it is indeed foolish to bring my own equipment.

So that's what I don't know. I'm hoping to learn that from you guys -- is it easy to find someone that knows what they are doing?

The boat actually has "room" right now. Well, it has a dive compressor, AC, genset, three dive tanks, and other things that are soon going into a boat-yard sale (if they'll let me). So a big tupperware full of TIG stuff and a single argon tank will not get in the way, though I do worry about wrecking nice things with salt air.

And I already feel like I am going "lightweight" by not bringing the desktop CNC mill, as much as it will pain me to not be able to cut my own parts out there. The wife says that bringing a mill is absolutely ridiculous, whatever my fantasy of being able to make my own blocks, parts, or art from beach findings. I'm hoping to give it to a friend with an agreement that I can send them NC files to run and mail the results to me...

So.. I don't know. I guess it depends on how easy it is to find people. But even still, if it's cheap to ship the stuff to where the boat is, then I feel like I may as well bring it and can then ditch it if it gets in the way. I sailed a complete darkroom from San Diego to Singapore last time, and only used it twice. So maybe the welder will be like that.
__________________
msponer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 21:20   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oregon
Boat: 57' Laurent Giles Yawl
Posts: 755
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

PS-- I knew, in passing, some folks in the Pacific who carried an enormous amount of tools and metal stock on board. On the way from Galapagos their autopilot hydraulic pump broke, so they were able to jerry rig a bilge pump to steer their boat for the remaining thousands of miles, but first had to carve reduction gears to make it work.

Anyways, they've since written a book: The Next Port [Kindle Edition]
Heyward Coleman
, with photos of ... what I would consider the most epic jerry rig ever.

So... I guess... I am feeling, if there is the capability to bring the tools, why not.
__________________
msponer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2012, 00:00   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World...

Quote:
Originally Posted by msponer View Post
Well, some folks do weld aluminum with oxy, and it is cool to watch the poetry of motion that requires:
How good is your TIG weld? (weld strength & oxy acetylene torch welding aluminum) - YouTube

But I am happy to just use TIG. Much more mellow.
If you think for one minute that the system shown in that clip would be suitable for repairing a crack in the keel of an aluminium yacht (6 to 10mm thick) you would be wrongly mis-guided.
MIG for plate welds TIG for small weld-ments i'm sorry its not just my opinion but a fact of life.
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2012, 04:56   #42
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us
MIG for plate welds TIG for small weld-ments i'm sorry its not just my opinion but a fact of life.
Have to agree here. Tig generates way to much heat and is way to slow for welding large projects in aluminium. The first welder I found when I cut a new companionway and wanting welding done on the deck used a tig and it was ridiculous. With him gone the next one brought a mig and it was amazing. You have to be experienced as the process goes VERY fast with mig and controlling the weld seemed like a serious art.

Hate to keep banging this drum about the myth of good aluminium welders all over. In my experience this is absolutely untrue. Maybe true in major ports in the states or Caribbean but I have sought welders in several ports in south africa, brazil, and now in trindade where I am finally on my last aluminium project I am finding it difficult to find a welder with the skills to do welding under the waterline. There is a big difference in a welding project on a metal boat such as attaching becketts to a boom or welding a clip onto the deck as there is welding seems in plate or through hulls below the waterline. The first almost any welder with skills can do, the later are mission critical items and I have had problems with sourcing people.

If you are bringing the equipment as a preventative item in anticipation of problems I can't say it would be the best use of space, but if you bought the boat with several major welding projects in mind that you intend to complete at various times during your travels then that is exactly the reason to bring the tools.

But mig not tig.
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2012, 04:59   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Have to agree here. Tig generates way to much heat and is way to slow for welding large projects in aluminium. The first welder I found when I cut a new companionway and wanting welding done on the deck used a tig and it was ridiculous. With him gone the next one brought a mig and it was amazing. You have to be experienced as the process goes VERY fast with mig and controlling the weld seemed like a serious art.

Hate to keep banging this drum about the myth of good aluminium welders all over. In my experience this is absolutely untrue. Maybe true in major ports in the states or Caribbean but I have sought welders in several ports in south africa, brazil, and now in trindade where I am finally on my last aluminium project I am finding it difficult to find a welder with the skills to do welding under the waterline. There is a big difference in a welding project on a metal boat such as attaching becketts to a boom or welding a clip onto the deck as there is welding seems in plate or through hulls below the waterline. The first almost any welder with skills can do, the later are mission critical items and I have had problems with sourcing people.

If you are bringing the equipment as a preventative item in anticipation of problems I can't say it would be the best use of space, but if you bought the boat with several major welding projects in mind that you intend to complete at various times during your travels then that is exactly the reason to bring the tools.

But mig not tig.
And skills not dills! There is no way a novice will pick up the skills necesarry to compete even with an average operator. I agree with your comments.....
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2012, 07:47   #44
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World ...

Assuming that you do not have any or any significant experience in welding aluminum - I would caution expecting any practical results from D-I-Y welding until you have gained a lot of practice. Steel welding is a breeze compared to aluminum in the degree of skill needed, IMHO.

The advice from the experienced welder's posts is quite good. Especially in MIG vs. TIG welding and the equipment needed for each. Basically, MIG is messy but doable with practice and a much simpler welder set-up. TIG welding aluminum is, IMHO, an art form and hiring a very experienced aluminum TIG welder worth the cost involved.

TIG "pens" require not only "gas" but also "cooling" for extensive welding projects. That gets into a lot of machinery needed to support that little TIG "pen."

There are basically only two world-wide standards for electrical systems - 115/230V 60Hz (commonly referred to as 120V) in the Western Hemisphere (except the islands from Antigua to Grenada) and 230V 50Hz (commonly referred to as 220V) in the rest of the world - and 2 more hybrids of the former in small places of the world. See map below.

As to marinas and boatyards, the biggest problem is getting clean and large enough amperage from the various outlets. Normally the "European" is 220VAC 50Hz and 16 amps. Western marinas have 120VAC 60Hz and 30 amps. Larger ampere supplies are available in better marinas but at a much higher price. Problem is the circuits are shared by other boats, etc. and you may not have the full amps available, especially in the older and "economical" marinas/boatyards where the wiring is old, worn, and corroded.

If you have been to many marinas/boatyards you will have noticed a lot of power connections that are "blackened" or burnt or just not functional anymore. A lot of 3rd World places use substandard wire and no grounding with wire connections being simply hand-twisted together and wrapped with electrical tape.

So I would suggest if you do plan on taking your own welding machines, you also install a genset in the boat that will power it. And you need to carry your own gas bottles and a huge supply of the proper alloy welding rods and wire spools. In other words, be self contained and not rely on exterior power or supplies.

I carry a good assortment of the various plugs (both male and female) used world-wide and 100 feet of #6 awg 3 conductor welding wire (very flexible) and change the connectors as needed. Also short lengths of the cable and boxes to make up "adapter" Y-splitters and other assorted adapters so that I can use whatever electrical sources I encounter.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	voltages%20around%20the%20world.gif
Views:	83
Size:	29.1 KB
ID:	37330  
__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2012, 08:13   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland, France
Boat: 33ft sloop
Posts: 1,091
Images: 5
Re: Welding in Boatyards of The World ...

Welding in shipyards is done @ 380-400 3phase current; not 220 single phase - pro boatyards are working with high amperage and 220 does not sustain that.

The alu welding itself, specifically hulls is definitely something that you have to learn and practice a lot before you can handle complete boats. Alu deforms quickly and burns even faster. Next to that, there are different alloys running from AlMg 4,5 to AlMg 6.

You can do pretty things with aluminium and some other alloys, but the making of a straight aluminium hull is not for everyone. There are welders and welders .......
__________________

__________________
MacG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boatyards

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boat Ownership in NZ (and the Rugby World Cup !) wolfaroo Off Topic Forum 21 18-10-2011 18:39
World Cruising Club at Annapolis Boat Show Hud3 Cruising News & Events 4 13-10-2011 04:55



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:42.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.