Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-08-2011, 20:38   #61
Registered User
 
twoblocktom's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Boat: Santana 25
Posts: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by bangkaboat

Well the moment I saw the word "engineer" in your post, I was worried.
The only engineer I ever met who could weld worth a darn was my old man, but he was a shipyard boilermaker before he became a metallurgical eng. Most of my own experience is that the engineers are guys in white hats who like to go around screwing with your welder because they think they know better! Actually, learned a lot working in inspection for my old man.
Sorry, I disagree completely !!!

A competent engineer can be worth his weight in gold. If you find one that will work with you and listen. In return you must work with and listen to them.
All too often the engineer must make decisions long before it gets to the construction phase. Looking at things to come is different than looking at the here and now.
This is where the rubber meets the road.... Now what do we do with this......
Some are no help, I agree. Just like there is a slug in almost every crew.
But
Train drivers have saved me more than once.
__________________

__________________
twoblocktom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2011, 21:57   #62
Registered User
 
bangkaboat's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sihanoukville, Cambodia
Boat: looking
Posts: 593
Images: 3
Re: Welding at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoblocktom View Post
Sorry, I disagree completely !!!

A competent engineer can be worth his weight in gold. If you find one that will work with you and listen. In return you must work with and listen to them.
All too often the engineer must make decisions long before it gets to the construction phase. Looking at things to come is different than looking at the here and now.
This is where the rubber meets the road.... Now what do we do with this......
Some are no help, I agree. Just like there is a slug in almost every crew.
But
Train drivers have saved me more than once.
Sorry, I guess the humorous undertone doesn't travel well over the internet. Although I haven't been overly impressed with some I've worked with in the drydocks & shipyards, I know several who have been mentoring me as I work on design & they all seem like good guys. Aside from my father, I've only met one who I'd let weld something for me, however.

During a couple of ferry refits, we had one eng who kept giving us sketches on envelopes, even photos, instead of shop drawings, for some additions. On one frustrating day, I was bitching to another ship-fitter about receiving a sketch for the new MES(marine evac stns) components. He slid a photo of a newspaper sitting on a steel box across the table & said, " Well, I can get the measurements of width & length for these boxes they want on the sundeck, but how deep do you suppose they want it & how high up from the ground?" That was pretty typical, but you've got to see the humour in it, no? On a new ferry construction build, one shop built the superstructure 6" too wide for the main deck & the drawings for the elevator shaft didn't take weld shrinkage into consideration. With a few more issues the $42million budget went to $92million+. So, as with all professions & trades, there are those who take pride & those who half-ass things. Personally, I don't believe that half-assing ever saves time or money.
__________________

__________________
bangkaboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2011, 10:03   #63
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,352
Re: Welding at Sea

Having hired and fired engineers in an aerospace and marine environment I can say they are like everybody else, (doctors, lawyers, mechanics etc); Some were meant for the profession and some weren't. It doesnt have a lot to do with schooling, some of my best were from very small schools. Experience helps, but not that much with the wrong individual. One question I always asked in hiring interviews was whether they ever fixed their own cars, invented/built something from scratch etc. My engineers always spent a lot of time on the manufacturing floor solving their own, and other's, problems, that way they dont make the same mistake again, and get a feel for how difficult and troublesome poor planning can be.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2011, 11:41   #64
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 378
Re: Welding at Sea

Cheechako,

Amen, brother. The good engineers were born for it,and they fix cars, design and build stuff, etc in their free time. A great interview question. Degrees and certs don't predict competence well.

Cheers, Paul
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2011, 15:33   #65
Registered User
 
NeptunesTrident's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Texoma
Boat: 62 Islander 24 + 88 Neptune 24
Posts: 170
Re: Welding at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoblocktom View Post
Basically true....
6011- farmers love it. it will weld through rust, mud, manure, you name it. What they like most is you can weld vertical down. No need to fight gravity.

6010- pipe welders love it for the stringer pass in pipe ( first pass ) that is run down-hand but they finish the weld with E7018 up hand.

7010-basically a 70,000 tensile strength version of 6010.

7014- is a general application electrode that I personally have not seen but for school

E7018 is a low hydrogen 70,000 tensile strength electrode. It is generally applied with up hand progression. It must be kept dry ( the plastic top is not good enough)
or baked out. If dry it is very good at preventing hydrogen cracking and stress corrosion cracking.

This is all too much for the beginner to need to know.
7018 is a little harder to master but the finished product will be more sound due to the lack of hydrogen trapped within.
6010 and 7010 are structural rods. 6010 was used as a pipe root rod on open V groove welds untill Lincoln came out with the 5P. Which is the 6010 pipe version. The7010 was designed as a structural rod.
__________________
NeptunesTrident is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2011, 16:16   #66
Registered User
 
NeptunesTrident's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Texoma
Boat: 62 Islander 24 + 88 Neptune 24
Posts: 170
Re: Welding at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
Regards Corten steel, Tom Colvin, who created over 200 steel boat designs, owned boatyards that built steel boats, and sailed on steel and aluminum boats for decades, built his own Gazelle out of Corten and specified Corten on the plans. The purpose for using Corten on boats has nothing to do with corrosion resistance, because in salt water it still corrodes badly, hell it's still steel. The reason for using Corten is strength. Look it up, it's a member of the high strenght low alloy steels, and can be useful for reducing weight in the hull. It's harder than the typical A36, stronger, a little more demanding to work with.
Corten steel, (COR-TEN) is nothing more than a 500 grade steel. Exactly what is used in high rise construction. It was developed as a weathering steel. To be left, un painted in the weather where, like alumium, it develops corrision layer for protection. Painting corten steel promotes the rusting process.

Most all your construction grade steels are low alloy steels unless they are the stainless or other speciality steels. Corten is still just a basic 50,000 psi tensile steel. It's ability to resist rust is negated once you paint it. They tried using the stuff for railroad cars. They rusted through while painted. So, just from my perspective, I would not use corten for a boat.

Most boats built today, (except for some of these sailboats built from old plans that call for corten steel), are not built with corten. Corten was really never intended for boats. Most boat hulls are built using ABS A grade steels. And for my money, that is what I would use on any steel boat I happned across. AH, DH or EH36 steels. Corten is old world tech.

However this will require the use of other weld filler metals. Using a 11018 filler rod. This is a common rod, flux core wire, used extensively in ship yards, mines and other applications.
__________________
NeptunesTrident is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2011, 17:15   #67
Registered User
 
SabreKai's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada on Lake Ontario
Boat: Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 1,287
Images: 5
Re: Welding at Sea

Hmmm. Espina is a 52 year old lady made entirely from Corten. The corrosion in her is minimal, and behind the paint not at all. Her biggest problem was having the coach roof made from mahogany which sadly didn't have the same life span as the hull.
__________________
SabreKai
SV Sabre Dance, Roberts Offshore 38
http://sabredancing.wordpress.com/
SabreKai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2011, 19:42   #68
Registered User
 
FUTURE DAYS's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Nelson Bay Australia
Boat: Frank Pelin 35ft
Posts: 58
Images: 3
Re: Welding at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreKai View Post
Hmmm. Espina is a 52 year old lady made entirely from Corten. The corrosion in her is minimal, and behind the paint not at all. Her biggest problem was having the coach roof made from mahogany which sadly didn't have the same life span as the hull.
Thanks for the reply and support SabreKai, how can I see a photo of 'Espina'?....cheers Harry
__________________
FUTURE DAYS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 07:43   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newport News VA
Boat: Egg Harbor sedan cruiser 1970
Posts: 829
Re: Welding at Sea

E6013 rods are what I found worked the easiest for me an amateur welder
E7024 rods I also used for putting together and repairing of a car hitch.
Used both of those on the trailer.

E6011 I had a lot of troubles with. I have only an AC welder and an Oxy-acet setup.
My E6011 rods were very difficult to strike and maintain an arc and they stuck a lot. I cant recommend them especially to a new welder

Quote:
E6013 is a mild-steel, all position, general-purpose cellulose-base rod. It operates on AC or DC welding current and works well on low voltage AC machines. E6013 is an excellent choice where there is poor fit-up in the joint. It deposits easily and smoothly producing medium to shallow penetration. Small sizes are well adapted to low heat on thin metals. Medium to heavy slag is easily removed and provides for excellent weld cleaning action during the welding process. E6013 is a great selection for all types of mild steel fabrications or repairs where ease of operation and good bead appearance are required.

Typical Applications
General-purpose fabrication
Metal buildings and structures
Machine parts
Shaft buildup


Quote:
E7024 is a high speed, iron powder, heavy coated electrode for high deposition rates on horizontal and down hand welding. Excellent bead appearance and self-cleaning slag give it operator appeal. This electrode has good weldability and superior mechanical properties and is particularly useful in obtaining increased penetration with little or no root porosity in horizontal or positioned fillets.

Typical Applications
Shipbuilding
Bridges
Structural Steels
Machine bases
Truck fabrication
Storage tanks

Quote:
E6011 is a mild-steel, all position electrode designed primarily for use on AC power sources. It produces a strong arc force for deep penetration and a fine spray transfer that enhances operator appeal. Fast freezing or rapid solidification of the metal allows welding in the vertical and overhead position. Its light slag eliminates slag holes that are prevalent on some applications with other electrodes. This product can be suited in a wide range of applications.

Typical Applications
General-purpose fabrication
Galvanized steel work
Structural work
Shipbuilding
http://www.weldingmaterialsales.com/...roductpage.htm
__________________
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 08:36   #70
Registered User
 
NeptunesTrident's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Texoma
Boat: 62 Islander 24 + 88 Neptune 24
Posts: 170
Re: Welding at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreKai View Post
Hmmm. Espina is a 52 year old lady made entirely from Corten. The corrosion in her is minimal, and behind the paint not at all. Her biggest problem was having the coach roof made from mahogany which sadly didn't have the same life span as the hull.
And that is exactly the point. Corten has never recived an ABS designation. ASTM 242, ASTM 588 and ASTM 588-M. They do not recommend Corten for steel hulls. Any more it is regulated to sheets of 10 gage and on decks and other such places. There are much better steels today.
I consulted the AWS "Guide for Steel Hull Welding ANSI/AWS D3.5, Table 1A, American Bureau of Shipping Requirements for Ordinary-Strength Hull Structural Steel...", (Really long title there.) just to make sure I was not out in left field on this. There is no recommendation for the use of Cor-ten steel grades in the construction of steel hulls on this size ship. Really have not consulted on larger hulls, but pretty sure they also use the ABS graded steels. They are stronger, low carbon, high strength steels with tensile strengths of up to 90,000 psi.
Now I am not saying that you should not use Cor-ten steels if you so desire. After all, if your sailing it, it is your call. My point is there are better choices for hull construction out there, without subjecting one to the risks I see with the weathering type steels.
__________________
NeptunesTrident is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 09:24   #71
Registered User
 
capn_billl's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston,Tx
Boat: Maxum 37'
Posts: 1,587
Re: Welding at Sea

Back to poster, I use a cheap wire flux welder I bought at Harber Freight. It can run off of my generator, uses 120Volts. It took only a few hours of practice to learn how to use. (I had only welded 1 time before twenty years ago in shop class). Since then I have used it to make a variety of repairs to small and large steel objects, I have been able to weld upside down, and vertical welds in hard to reach areas.

They also sell auto dark helmets that are adjustable, (to recommended darkness for the welding you are doing). Being able to see clearly what you are about to weld up to the millisecond you strike the arc is a great help.

Hull repairs are probably best left to experts unless you want to take the time and effort to become really, (trained and proficient). But for those little repairs, cracked or corroded fittings, braces, rigging, etc... Having a small wire welder is really handy, and makes a better repair than glue.

I've had better luck with the angle grinder to prep, and to cleanup and grind flat ugly welds.
The one big advantage of flux wire over mig is you don't need to find a source of argon in undeveloped countries.
__________________
capn_billl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 10:03   #72
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,352
Re: Welding at Sea

I'm not convinced that just because ABS doesnt mention Corten that is a reason to exclude it. Is Corten available in thick enough or appropriate size etc for large shipbuilding...? I doubt ABS recommends titanium either, but that would be the most superior metal you could use... and the most expensive. Having said all that, if building a new boat, i think corten would be more of a challenge than other steels. I'm not sure what it has in it to make it oxidate, but it did cause us some issues to get xray clear butt welds. So for an ameteur welder it could be a little tough, even though you wont be xraying.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 10:18   #73
Registered User
 
SabreKai's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada on Lake Ontario
Boat: Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 1,287
Images: 5
Re: Welding at Sea

sorry its such a huge picture but here's Espie in her glory days. Some time in the end 60s I think

__________________
SabreKai
SV Sabre Dance, Roberts Offshore 38
http://sabredancing.wordpress.com/
SabreKai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 10:22   #74
Registered User
 
NeptunesTrident's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Texoma
Boat: 62 Islander 24 + 88 Neptune 24
Posts: 170
Re: Welding at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I'm not convinced that just because ABS doesnt mention Corten that is a reason to exclude it. Is Corten available in thick enough or appropriate size etc for large shipbuilding...? I doubt ABS recommends titanium either, but that would be the most superior metal you could use... and the most expensive. Having said all that, if building a new boat, i think corten would be more of a challenge than other steels. I'm not sure what it has in it to make it oxidate, but it did cause us some issues to get xray clear butt welds. So for an ameteur welder it could be a little tough, even though you wont be xraying.
Not only ABS, but AWS also. ABS is the authority on boats, ships and yachts. The Table I quote is for small steel boats. Yachts. I was not talking about larger ships.
Titanium would make a pitiful boat hull materiel. I don't know how you came to the conclusion it could be even remotely suited for a boat. Of any type.
__________________
NeptunesTrident is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 10:25   #75
Registered User
 
NeptunesTrident's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Texoma
Boat: 62 Islander 24 + 88 Neptune 24
Posts: 170
Re: Welding at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreKai View Post
sorry its such a huge picture but here's Espie in her glory days. Some time in the end 60s I think

Nice looking craft. Well cared for it seems. Anything on repairs that have been made or refits?
__________________

__________________
NeptunesTrident is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Challenge: Going to Sea - Your First Time Alone Wavewacker Challenges 38 24-04-2014 19:55
Hello from a Black Sea Sailor Currently in New York plexique Meets & Greets 3 15-07-2011 17:46
free caribbean sea charts for sea clear? skaspo Navigation 0 27-06-2011 16:10



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:28.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.