Waterlogged Rudder

[CptCrunchie]

I have mentioned on a few threads that we are looking at buying a blue water sailboat to head into the South Pacific to live. We found one locally that would work, but she comes with some issues.

The biggest one is the rudder; it is full of water. After a month of investigation, if I re-core it myself, which after a brief education from YTU, I can do, I still have questions. I've done a lot of glassing, just not anything that needed to be precise. Even still, I'm looking at at least $5000. And if I use the company who originally built it, I'm looking at $8,000.

Rudder STB.jpg Views: 259 Size: 411.7 KB ID: 187704" style="margin: 2px" />

Why so much? Foss Foam in FL originally built it, and they are still in business. While they quote $4500 for a new one (inc shipping), they can't seem to find the specs for the frame. That means I have to put it in dry dock for at least 24 days, take the existing rudder off, strip the frame out and send it to them. Then they will either reuse frame or build a new one, ...which is a $1300 difference.

From what I have learned about the frame, it is like this one off an Irwin.

Irwin 52 replacement rudder.jpg Views: 730 Size: 71.3 KB ID: 187705" style="margin: 2px" />

Foss said they used stainless steel for the shaft, and regular steel for everything else. And since it is full of salt water, I - nor they - have any clue of the integrity of the welds, nor the steel.

The company says they only use 20lb urethane foam, so it has a ton of rigidity. It also means it will likely be a fight to remove it. Either way, I have the tools, ....but do I want the job? My biggest concern is how accurate I need to be when I reapply the glass.

After learning this, I thought the foam would protect the steel, since it is fully encased. But according to a few articles I read, I'm now concerned that the movement of the rudder may have separated the two, and the steel has been sitting in seawater.

So, ....

If I do it myself, what do you think the chances are that I can reuse the existing frame? Or should I bite the bullet and pay the $8000 for them to build me a new one? Or do you think a 100% moisture reading on the rudder would be okay to use for a year? It's a 1990 boat that has been sitting on the hard for 3 years.

One old salt I talked to said I could use it as is, but sink an eye-bolt into the top of the rudder, so if it ever failed, I could steer it with a line over the side. Not sure how that would work in a blow somewhere in the turbid SPc. I thanked him, nodded, then backed away slowly.

Among other issues is the shaft strut. Since welding it while on the boat could be disastrous, it should really be replaced. I guess the good news is I could do them at the same time. The bad news is the local SS welder wants $1800 for a new one, which seems a tad high.



My big issue is the $4000 in lift charge and dry dock fees, money I was hoping to put into solar. I just don't see another way to do it, which is cramping our decision. Am I opening up a nose-bleed of issues?

I wish I didn't like the boat so much, but it is 90% of what we are looking for. The rest I can add. But can I make it work? I welcome your thoughts.

[Pete7]

Presumably you have seen Mads on Sail life who is doing a rudder at the moment.

Rather than having a p bracket made in stainless steel, is there an off the shelf bronze item that would fit? Do you have a company like this in the US, must be somewhere?

https://teignbridge.co.uk/products-2/sterngear/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRbDP3pmLB8

[Cheechako]

My advice: Do it yourself. Building another and just putting foam back in is stupid. My guess is most rudders like that have water. Most people dont know, or dont want to know. Two boats I had; one 6 years old, one 7 years old both had waterlogged rudders. It leaks in from the top where the shaft exits. Glass resin onto SS is not a seal!
Here's what I did on my 44 footer:
-I left the rudder in the boat.
-I cut a big window in the side of the rudder with a skil saw.
- I removed the rectangular panel and kept it.
-I dug out all the wet foam and let it dry out good.
-Inspect the stainless steel shaft and blade structure. Mine was fine.
-I cored two 3/4-1" holes on the top of the rudder with a hole saw.
-Taper the edges of the rectangle panel you removed and the edges of the rudder a few inches from the edge.
-glass the rectangle back onto the rudder, several layers. Until the glass surface is above the surrounding surface.
-I then mixed and poured an epoxy product into the rudder that was meant for casting shapes. The two holes allowed air to escape and tell when it was completely full.
- Grind, Sand and finish the rudder.
-The weight of the epoxy vs foam is negligible, especially in the water.

If your SS frame is bad, you can split a rudder on 3 edges and open it up enough to replace the framework. Or just take the two halves apart if that is too hard.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Presumably you have seen Mads on Sail life who is doing a rudder at the moment.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Rather than having a p bracket made in stainless steel, is there an off the shelf bronze item that would fit? Do you have a company like this in the US, must be somewhere?

I had bronze struts on my old Chris Craft, and using it here in the PNW, I bent two of them on floating debris, and they were about 4" shorter. Pretty sure I want to stick with SS.

[sailorboy1]

I would bet most rudders have water in them

[letsgetsailing3]

Why can't you just send them the specs for the rudder?

Presumably, they know how to put one together. Hauling out a boat, keeping it on the hard, and digging out an old frame seem like an excessive amount of work/expense, and if you go to that amount of trouble, you might as well rebuild it yourself.

As far as boats go, if you can find a boat that is 90% of what you want, you're where you want to be.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

My advice: Do it yourself. Building another and just putting foam back in is stupid. My guess is most rudders like that have water. Most people dont know, or dont want to know. Two boats I had; one 6 years old, one 7 years old both had waterlogged rudders. It leaks in from the top where the shaft exits. Glass resin onto SS is not a seal!
Here's what I did on my 44 footer:
-I left the rudder in the boat.
-I cut a big window in the side of the rudder with a skil saw.
- I removed the rectangular panel and kept it.
-I dug out all the wet foam and let it dry out good.
-Inspect the stainless steel shaft and blade structure. Mine was fine.
-I cored two 3/4-1" holes on the top of the rudder with a hole saw.
-Taper the edges of the rectangle panel you removed and the edges of the rudder a few inches from the edge.
-glass the rectangle back onto the rudder, several layers. Until the glass surface is above the surrounding surface.
-I then mixed and poured an epoxy product into the rudder that was meant for casting shapes. The two holes allowed air to escape and tell when it was completely full.
- Grind, Sand and finish the rudder.
-The weight of the epoxy vs foam is negligible, especially in the water.

If your SS frame is bad, you can split a rudder on 3 edges and open it up enough to replace the framework. Or just take the two halves apart if that is too hard.

Interesting. Never thought about splitting it apart. That would save the side I'm concerned about my glass work being symmetrical. But .....then making sure the foam fills the entire void...... Hmmmm....

Not sure 2" holes will be enough. This rudder is over 5' long, 5" thick at the wildest part, and 36" wide. I also have no clue how big the frame is, and how far from the sides it sits. I asked Foss Foam for the specs, but they said that information was their secret. But when I said that I would have that information anyway once I opened it up, they didn't reply. Go figure.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Why can't you just send them the specs for the rudder?

They have the actual mold for the rudder. They are missing the specs for the frame.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Presumably, they know how to put one together. Hauling out a boat, keeping it on the hard, and digging out an old frame seem like an excessive amount of work.

Might want to reread my OP.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

As far as boats go, if you can find a boat that is 90% of what you want, you're where you want to be.

That's my dilemma. At what point does it become an unrecoverable nosebleed of expenses? As it is, I'm saving 15% of our boat budget for overruns, and this would eat up a good chunk of it.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I would bet most rudders have water in them

The biggest issue to overcome is knowing about it. I want to sleep while underway.

[CptCrunchie]

If I land up doing it, I'd most likely do it something like this. Hence, my questions about symmetry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRXNnFx7DBQ

[Bill O]

If you replace your rudder and inspect the internal frame work you'll at least know your rudder will hold up during your trip. Many have no idea what shape the rudder post and extensions are before they leave when they start cruising.

I'll second what Cheechako described you do to fix the rudder. It really is not that hard once you get into it. We replaced our rudder and went a slightly different approach since ours wasn't the original. We went w/engineered HDU board and no internal wood. Until we hauled the boat we didn't have dimensions to order materials for the rebuild. While doing the bottom, rudder new thru hulls for electronics and other jobs, we were out exactly 3 weeks.

I always found it interesting that Amel (at least on some older ones) left their rudder hollow with holes in it so it could fill with water, then would naturally drain when hauled. Not certain how they maintained neutral buoyancy (like w/foam filled rudders), but neat concept.


Bill O.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Bill O

I always found it interesting that Amel (at least on some older ones) left their rudder hollow with holes in it so it could fill with water, then would naturally drain when hauled. Not certain how they maintained neutral buoyancy (like w/foam filled rudders), but neat concept.

Perforated is pretty close to neutrally buoyant, especially is there is any air trapped in the top.

I may well land up doing that, IF we buy this boat. Right now, we are a good distance apart on the price.

[Fore and Aft]

Have you thought about getting the boat slipped, dropping the rudder then going straight back in the water and being towed to your slip. I have done this a number of times when repairing rudders. That way you save money on hard stand fees. On my own yacht I put a ratchet strap around the rudder blade (tied the strap to a cleat) while the yacht was in the water then undid the quadrant and dropped the rudder. I was in the water maybe 20 minutes to wiggle the rudder out of the boat. I then did this in reverse when I put the new rudder in.

Cheers

[Reefmagnet]

I split my rudder which I'm pretty sure had been wet inside since the day it was launched over 30 years ago a while back and checked the stock and frame for corrosion it was fine except for a minor amount of crevice corrosion at the point just before where the shaft exited the top of the rudder. This was fixed with a bit of grinding and welding.


I did pick up a tip from somewhere about fibreglassing an O-ring over the ends of the rudder stock during rebuilding and and this make a better seal than the fibreglass to stainless steel interface.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Have you thought about getting the boat slipped, dropping the rudder then going straight back in the water and being towed to your slip. I have done this a number of times when repairing rudders. That way you save money on hard stand fees. On my own yacht I put a ratchet strap around the rudder blade (tied the strap to a cleat) while the yacht was in the water then undid the quadrant and dropped the rudder. I was in the water maybe 20 minutes to wiggle the rudder out of the boat. I then did this in reverse when I put the new rudder in.

Cheers

I have thought long and hard about that. If you look at the first photo, the waterline is above the rudder post. Until I can find out how thick the shaft mount is, I could very well sink the boat. Only way I can think of to find out how thick it is is to remove the rudder and look.

Also, the boatyard wants double for travel lift to do that, which is almost $600 each time. In the big picture, that's not a lot, but I just have too many questions about the whole process before I can consider going that route.

https://wa-portofportangeles2.civicp...d-Rates?bidId=