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Old 12-05-2006, 05:46   #1
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Water Based Paint?

Ahoy from Good Old Boat magazine*. We are approaching the point where we will paint the interior of our project boat, the Mega 30. I'd like to hear from anyone in the Good Old Boat community that has used water based paint on the interior of their boat.

Some questions are,

How long did the paint last, or how long has it lasted so far? If it failed what was the failure like? What brand did you use? What kind of surface preparation, and primer did you use? How was the paint applied?

If I get enough encouragement we might try painting the inside of our boat with water based paint. It certainly would be easier. If we get enough responses to be interesting I'll report a summary of them in the magazine or newsletter.

Reply to jerry@goodoldboat.com

* http://www.goodoldboat.com/
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Old 12-05-2006, 07:48   #2
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Water based paints

I am in the process of painting the interior of an older wooden sailboat. I have been researching paints like crazy and this is what I have found...( not to be confused with the right answer about water base paints).
I have read that oil base paints nurture moisture, and to me that speaks of mildew! In the articles I have found, it was recommended that exterior water base paints be used in damp areas.
Now, these articles were referring to houses...
I thoroughly cleaned the entire interior in 3 stages over 2 weeks to remove any mildew with soap and bleach. Then I waited a week for it to completely dry. In the deepest storage areas I primed with a mildew resistant paint. Then I went for it and used exterior paints on the interior. I was able to use a high gloss for some areas that has turned out very well. When I used a lower gloss I had to coat the paint with Poly Acrlic to keep it from rubbing off in high wear areas.
I truly can't say if using the water base paints is the best idea, but, as far as longevity...I painted a bunk the same way many years ago and the last time I saw it it still looked great and there was no mildew.
There is a marine water base paint made for cabins. Some came with our boat and I tried it on a small area and was very unimpressed with the finish. And it was expensive, to boot.
When I came to an area that wasn't wood, I sanded to rough up the finish. One area I primed and one area I didn't. By Gosh and by Golly, the unprimed area was an easier paint and is just as durable at this point.
If I had it do over, I would have skipped the mildew primer.
Oh, and use the delicate surface tape and be careful of loading paint on it! Give each coat plenty of time to dry and don't even pay attention to the instuctions for recoating time on the paint can. On high humidity days I learned to wait a couple of days before recoating and kept the fans running.
So, what I Do know is...that the paint looks good. The high gloss paint went on the best. I have painted in stages over the last 5 months and the paint is proving very durable. The cleanup is a easy and the fumes are way, way less then if I had used oil base.
I did use topside paint on the floors for durability...lo and behold, I found a spot of mildew trying to form around the damp area of the fridge.
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:08   #3
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Gord, I am becoming more enamored with water based paints. I'm thinking that for interior surfaces not in constant contact with water it is the way to go because of their advantages, i.e. less toxic fumes, easy to clean up dribbles and spills, and excellent durabillity and washability.

For sure, oil based primers are necessary to keep any chemical migration from the substrate outward (and, therefore, I must assume vice-versa) like from acids or bases contaminating a surface. Smells carried by and associated with acids and bases can migrate through water based paints and less so through oil based paints yet that may change as the newer water based paints become more sophistically formulated with the possible strong bonded long-chained molecules which theoretically might be able to contain acids and bases as well as oil based paint, but I don't know for sure.

For example, I had some new wood which got splashed with a rusty water having sulpheric acid and dried. Five coats of a good water based paint later the rust stain kept showing through after several days. One coat of oil based paint stops that.
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Old 14-05-2006, 00:53   #4
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You can now get Water based Enamels. A little harder wearing than standard Acrylics. However, niether is as good IMO as an oil based enamel. If water base paints are used in area's where hard wearing is not an issue, they should be fine. Acrylics have one nasty problem though. anything sitting on the dry paint surface for any time, will eventually adhere to the painted surface. Enamels don't have that problem.
That aside, you should be able to get 10yrs out of WBPaints as long as they aren't subject to hard wear. Polyurathanes are going to give you much longer, but know the issues.
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Old 14-05-2006, 18:20   #5
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Hey Wheels, check out the article on Hotrod.com about such paints. What do you think they have done to make their surface not stick to objects placed on the finish?
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/1...utoair_paints/

If this is the future I want in yet do not know how to make an intelligent choice regarding this newer paint technology.
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Old 14-05-2006, 23:36   #6
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Now that sounds cool. One thing I have to remember myself, you can never say, "this is the way it is" as technology is always evolving adn we have to keep up, or an oposition will pass us by. That's what I have spent years teaching others, I better listen to myself more.

OK, this is what I know. Firstly, the solvent, which can be organo, mineral of water based, does one basic job. It's there to get the paint from the tin to the job. So the solvent it's self is not actually what makes a paint what it dries out to be.
A paint is essentialy a "protective coating" that does a specific job. Undercoats have pigments added, but not essential to the paints main purpose. Undercoats are formulated mainly for adhesion and filling.
Top coats use pigments that ARE essential to the paints main purpose. These paints are formulated for the purpose of finish, colour and protection.
The formula's of each type may be different, but the essential simularity is that they have a "Binding Agent" to hold all the ingredients together in a suspension till the binder hardens. The binder works by a chemical reaction. Essentially it is kinda like a two pot mixture that once two molicule parts come together, they react and harden. The solvent keeps these two parts apart till it reaches the surfacing being painted. The next job is the finish as the paint dries and hardens. Organo solvents and Mineral based solvents have in the past, been the most supperior in getting a high gloss finish. This is in how the solvent evaporates away from the paint.

(Without getting to far of track here, a "Real" two pot paint, often doesn't have as much solvent, because the keeping of molicules apart is not an essential part of the solvents purpose. Epoxy based paints often have no solvents at all.)

So, the goal for these paint makers is to get a binder that acts like a resin and will go very hard, will have good colour and gloss once the solvent has evaporated away, and of course, use water as the solvent. I don't see it as impossible, jut someone needs to invent the technology and by that website, it maybe that someone has.

By the way, I think I have heard of a water based epoxy, but I have never used it.
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Old 15-05-2006, 15:25   #7
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Since enviromental concerns caused changes to oil based paint, I have switched to "automotive" paint. Is it easy to work with-no. I would not try to brush it on. Is it durable -yes, easy to clean-yes. Cheap-no. In NYS oil based paint can only be purchased in quarts or smaller, gallons will only be sold until invantories are depleted. I have never seen mildew form on an auto, have you? Some of the epoxy primers developed for the automotive industry defy description. I am sure that the large market is responsible for the excellent products available. Prime and finish coats all in the same day. Masking and covering can be a problem, especially inside. I really dislike painting and the fact that I can complete in one day (after prep) is very appealing
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Old 15-05-2006, 22:59   #8
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What exactly are you using when you say "Automotive paints". Most car paints are a Nitrocellulose laquer based paints and can have cynoacrylates in them. They are actually worse for the environment than oil based paints. The solvents are very bad news. These paints are used because of the fast drying ability and low film thickness. This equates to less product being used and can be applied very quickly (as you said, multi coats in a day). The big negatives are the substrates they can be used on a limited. These paints don't take well to substrate movement. It will crack easily. It also has little film thickness, so the protective layer is not very errr, protective.

As a little piece of useless info (I'm full of that) in LA, 60Ton's of paint fumes evaporate into the atmosphere from drying paint, EACH DAY!
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Old 16-05-2006, 01:43   #9
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Paint Systems

Working in the joinery and cabinetmaking business, we have a lot to do with paints, lacquers etc.

In my opinion, the ranking of finishes, in order of most durable to least durable are:
1. Two Pack - polyurethane/epoxy paints; very durable and able to withstand moisture, heat etc. We would use these in bathroom or kitchen joinery where others would be a risk for long term viability.
2. Acid Cat; a 2 part finishing system that uses acid to catalyse the paint. Good durability for most areas; water resistance OK, but prolonged use in wet areas will accelarate the deterioration of the finish.
3. PC lacquers - the nitrocellulous type finish as refered to above by Wheels. Good because in the right conditions you can apply several coats in one day. Don't use it near water, it will stain easily.

All the above are best applied by spraying in a controlled environment such as a spray booth. All are toxic while applying, and will "gas off" for a period of time after, and plenty of ventilation is need to ensure safety.

As with most finishes, the repair of isolated scratching or damage will require the complete re-coating of the affected panel.

Like most things, the choice of surface finishing system will vary from boat to boat, person to person depending on things like personal taste, cost, easy of application and ongoing maintenance required among others.

Having said all the above, my fitout below decks is finished with a combination of traditional clear varnish, and enamel paints.

Fair winds

Steve
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Old 22-05-2006, 16:39   #10
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Sorry it took so log to respond (I have been having problems logging on to this website.I am not using lacquers.) The system I have been using is formulated By BASF. The line I have been using is R-M. This is not BASF's top line however the quality far exceeds my needs. Basically I use the same system that is designed for "flexible" auto body parts. Epoxy primer, followed by polyurethane. All w on w (or wet on wet). Usually if I decide to wet sand the primer I can apply 3 coats in 8 hours. If I do not sand -3 coats in 6 hours. I recently painted a canoe, epoxy primer, base coat(color) clear coat -final coat. We had canoe hanging in my den 8 hours after I started. When I painted my sail boat (last summer) I used epoxy primer and a polyurethane two part that does not require a clearcoat. Imperfections stand out with clear coat---
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