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Old 05-06-2011, 16:26   #106
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
If there was a viable alternative to copper in bottom paint, we would have heard about it and the praises would be being sung to the rafters for this product. .
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Old 05-06-2011, 18:07   #107
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

There is a difference in whether there is a market for a product and whether a product is technologically possible to make. AFAIK, there is no copper free bottom paint that is as effective and long lasting as the copper based paint. Yes, there will be some added motivation to bring a replacement to market but that's not to say that there is no motivation to do it without a copper ban.

FWIW, using other peoples real life experience, it looks like the copper free bottom paint costs three times as much as the copper paints when you take short service life and frequency of required redo of the paint into account. That's roughly $1,500 a year more in the cost of boat ownership to go copper free for my 35' boat.

If somebody has a copper free bottom paint that will go three years in the tropics, let me know. I'm do for a haulout and would love to use a copper free bottom paint.

BTW, it seems that there is a concentration of bottom paints in confined waters of marinas. There is little evidence that it is effecting the marine life that hang around those waters. Apparently the marine life as well as most all life need copper in their diet so have mechanisms to control it in the low concentrations found around Marinas. Copper does occur in much higher concentrations, naturally, in other areas, btw. Overall, bottom paint contribution to copper levels in Puget Sound Waters is about 1%.
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Old 05-06-2011, 18:38   #108
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

I consider myself an environmentalist, and we started out with a copper loaded gelcoat, which, at the thickness I applied it, was to last 20 years. It would leach VERY little copper into the water. The thing was, that it didn't work at all, and since neither paint nor epoxy would stick to it near the underwater metal, (when I decided to paint over it), I had to grind it off at great expense and labor. THEN I went back to good ol copper bottom paint.

We do need to clean up the environment and water, across the board. The survival of our species depends on it. Even though 99% of the pollution comes from LARGE (>65') vessels, ships, and landside sources, I'm willing to do my part.

GIVE ME AN ALTERNATIVE THAT REALLY WORKS, and I will use it. Until then, I seriously doubt that the talk of BANNING copper bottom paint is anything but talk. It may have a benefit however, IF it creates a perceived need large enough for some clever manufacturer to solve the problem.

It would make them billions!

Mark
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Old 05-06-2011, 21:57   #109
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

Doug86,

Banning copper paint in the hope that manufacturers come up with an alternative was tried in other parts of the world about 20 years ago. This is what lead to today's copper free anti-fouling... i.e.: it failed.

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:30   #110
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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BoatUS has been monitoring developments in alternative antifouling paints for more than a decade and understands the origins and respects the good environmental intentions of this bill," the group said in a statement. "However, currently there are few effective and cost-conscious alternatives to keep hulls clean. The March 2011 issue of the well-regarded Practical Sailor magazine analyzed 62 antifouling paints, of which 12 contained no copper. In terms of performance, just one non-copper bottom paint (which contained zinc) rated 'excellent,' one rated 'fair,' and ten rated 'poor.'"
BoatUS opposes California Bottom Paint Bill

There are, based on this report, already non-copper 12 anti-fouling paints on the market. I'm not saying any of them are equal to copper based paints. Just sayin'...

I hope those opposed to the copper ban are member of Boat/US. They are against the ban.

In California, the proposed ban would affect used boats in 2019, and new boats in 2015.

Los Angeles County tried to ban oil based paints back in the early 90's, and everyone just went north or south to get their bottom painted, which had terrible affects on the local boat yards. I tried a water based bottom paint, and it really didn't work well. The County quickly saw the error of their ways and reversed the ban the next year.
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:37   #111
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

For those who would like to do some further research on copper free paint:

E Paint Company - antifouling environmentally friendly boat paint

Features:
> The Original Copper-free Antifouling Paint!
> “Recommended” and “24 Month Finalist” ratings by Practical Sailor Magazine, October 2009 Issue
> Better antifouling performance and protection than other copper-free ePaint-like paints
> Features Zinc Omadine® for the most advance slime control and ePaint's Patented photo-active technology
Quote:
Zinc OMADINE® products are highly active, broad spectrum antimicrobial agents that are registered around the world for use in both personal care as well as industrial product applications. In the U.S., Zinc OMADINE® products are approved for use by the EPA and allowed by the FDA. Zinc OMADINE® fungicide-algaecide is the zinc complex of pyrithione. Zinc OMADINE® fungicide-algaecide is the active ingredient in some of the leading antidandruff shampoo products around the world, and its proven combination of efficacy and safety-in-use has made it the world's leading anti-dandruff agent for more than 30 years. Zinc OMADINE® fungicide-algaecide is listed in the FDA Final Monograph on Dandruff and Seborrheic Dermatitis as a Category I substance (i.e. generally recognized as safe and effective). Zinc OMADINE® products are available in Industrial and Cosmetic grades, and in powder and in dispersion forms. Two types of dispersion are available: General and Fine Particle Size (FPS).
For the doubters, it seems that at least one product has achieved some success, as this paint got a 24 month recommendation from Practical Sailor. Yes, it contains a zinc compound, but that stuff has already been approved by the EPA, and probably won't be banned by state officials. It's the same stuff that is in dandruff shampoo.
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:59   #112
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

The actual ban mentioned is some time off. This gives time for scientist and manufacturers to really put their minds in the "non copper" direction. To date, there has been no incentive to do so. The future market appeared too small!

The largest volume of paint sold, probably goes to large vessels & ships. They are exempt from the ban, and can use TBT. Also... without legislation, most boaters would simply not switch over, even if there was an appropriate solution.

IMO: ENFORCING the "ban", may not happen. It depends on how successful manufacturers are in coming up with alternatives. If they do, then the ban will stand. If they don't, it will be "extended" until they do. I think of it as more of a "goal", than an etched in stone "ban".

I think that making "changes" in ALL aspects of the traditional ways that we do ALL things, is necessary in this vastly over populated, rapidly changing world. (Adaptability, more than any other trait, is what set "modern humans" apart from their less successful predecessors). Rather than freak out that I will be "forced" to use a product that does not work, I am hopeful, if not confident, that this increased "perceived need" will put a number of alternatives on the market soon enough. At the point that SHIPS & large vessels are also required to use the alternative, some real environmental progress will have been made. Hopefully the real pollution culprit, "land based runoff", will be getting tackled at the same time?

Copper in bottom paint is VERY expensive. Unless these "alternatives" have silver or gold as an active ingredient, I would think that they would eventually be LESS expensive. This would be more true over time, when there are 10 or more good alternatives out there to create competition.

Fingers crossed...

M.
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Old 06-06-2011, 13:02   #113
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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Originally Posted by doug86 View Post
For the doubters, it seems that at least one product has achieved some success, as this paint got a 24 month recommendation from Practical Sailor. Yes, it contains a zinc compound, but that stuff has already been approved by the EPA, and probably won't be banned by state officials. It's the same stuff that is in dandruff shampoo.
Yes, zinc omadine.. it does kill all fungi and algae and thus it is very bad for the environment. Just a matter of time before it gets outlawed.

But wait... how does it kill the barnacles, mussels etc? Oh, it has secret and special photo-active technology that deters the barnacles. Wow, how would that work? Flash a light when a barnacle tries to attach?

The claim they make is that their paint outperforms other non-copper paints. How does that help us when sailing in areas where even regular copper paints are ineffective. The alternative needs to outperform TBT paints, not other non-copper paints !!!

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:07   #114
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Originally Posted by Capt Phil
Having spent my formative years slapping on gallons of 'red lead' to the hulls of seineboats in the PNW, I am delighted that Commissar Gregoire has elected to ban any and all bottom paint that does not have the 'spotted owl' seal of approval.
My other half is totally convinced that my strange political predisposition is entirely due to a wild and misspent youth working commercially on the water and all the unpolitically correct bottom paint and engine room asbestos ingested over the years has caused brain lesions manifesting themselves in political rants and generally poor public behaviors. Thank you, Christine, for saving generations of others who could have been similarly infected by hard work, keeping your word and other terrible conditions that I had to suffer through. Capt Phil
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Old 10-06-2011, 18:15   #115
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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Am I correct in assuming that commercial and military shipping are exempt from this law? Whose combined tonnage no doubt exceeds that of all pleasure craft in the state?

Last I heard it was still legal for commercial and military shipping to use TBT paints.

Anyone know if that is still true?
I don't know the additives that are illegal but the last ship I worked on was painted with International "Interspeed" Paint. The list of deadly ingerdiants to this (and almost all commercial paint) can be found in the product's MSDS sheers. HERE is the link for interspeed's MSDS.... among other things the paint contains:


3(2H)-Isothiazolone, 4,5-dichloro- 2-octyl-
ETHYLTOLUENESULFONAMIDE
Carbon black
Copper(+1) oxide
Zinc oxide
Methyl isoamyl ketone
Ethyl benzene
o-Xylene


There are also magazines (available online) for marine paint inspectors. If you where looking for the ultimate bottom paint I'd read a few of the magazines then check out the MSDS sheets for the ingredients.... then find boat paint that had the same stuff in it then check with a marine biologists to make sure the stuff is ok for the environment.
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Old 13-06-2011, 10:17   #116
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

Looks like I'll be using an Idaho address to order my next bottom paint and use plain buckets when painting myself. Yes there's barges and tugs going up the Snake River to Lewiston Idaho and other recreational boats and Idaho is a Republican state so I dought copper bottom paint will not be outlawed.
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Old 13-06-2011, 15:49   #117
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

So, after our illustrious governor perpetrated this latest drive-by shooting, she is now running away...

"Washington Governor Gregoire says won't run again"

Washington Governor Gregoire says won't run again | Reuters
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Old 13-06-2011, 15:55   #118
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

There is a more-or-less puff piece on this legislation in the lastest Northwest Yachting mag (freebie, page 68, http://nwyachting.com/pdf/jun11/jun11.pdf).

The author is supportive of the legislation. The author raises a number of the issues also raised in this thread, but makes no attempt to answer, support, or oppose any of the issues.

Just in case you are bored.
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Old 13-06-2011, 16:49   #119
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

Yeah the whole thing really got started by the "Puget Sound Sea Keepers Alliance" which decided that they would sue several boatyards for polluting the waterways. These "selected" boat yards were the smaller guys who could not really fight a long drawn out battle even though many of them were keeping up with the WA state regulations. The whole thing was a sham, (the letters were delivered Christmas eve) and really it was just a political ploy by the organization.

I would go so far as to say that is the point of this organization - to go after those that can't financially defend themselves. They didn't go after the city of seattle who dumps MILLIONS of gallons of sewage every year from overflow, or copper based brake pad manufacturers, rather they go after people they know can't defend themselves. In fact, at the time the head of PSKA had copper bottom paint on his boat.

I understand and encourage keeping things pristine but when people like this use such divisive methods it put a bad taste in my mouth.
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:39   #120
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

Not to keep this thread going but there was a recent test on copper paint and it's toxicology to mussels down in San Diego - really quite an interesting study saying that toxicity could not be demonstrated in 60 plus samples - http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/images...copper0109.pdf
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