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Old 11-01-2012, 01:22   #166
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
And still no links to science research proving so. Facts! That's what I want to see!
Doing some research here's what I've found........ Who are you supposed to believe?

COPPER TOXICITY SYNDROME

ATSDR - Toxic Substances - Copper

Toxic Copper: The Newly Discoverd Culprit in Alzheimer's & Dementia First is was aluminum, now it's copper which contradict the first links

PI-66/PI103: Pesticide Toxicity Profile: Copper-based Pesticides



Ocean dumping - CopperWiki

Pretty soon you will not be able to even swim in the ocean, or any other water source... Bioaccumulation in marine organisms: effect of contaminants from oil well ... - Jerry M. Neff - Google Books

Copper alloys in aquaculture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But still no real-science studies found.....

There's some truly hilarious science in some of these links! I really like the kook who wrote the first one. One thing you seem to be missing here is that cuprous oxide is NOT the same thing as copper, making half of these links totally irrelevant. Obviously, cuprous oxide is an oxide of copper and a whole different chemical compound with a quite interesting history and future.

Copper(I) oxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:11   #167
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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Those are scary numbers. The EPA's standard for toxicity of copper in seawater is 3.1 PPM. So 62 PPM in the PT marina is a huge concentration of toxicity, 20 times the EPA standard. And they're still getting 30 PPM outside the marina in the bay! Just goes to show that Puget Sound and surrounding inland waters really need this law. The TBT measurement's are even more revealing. 24 times greater inside the marina than outside! 46.5 PPM in the marina (very high) and 1.9 outside, very low. That says it all as far as TBT goes. And this after many years of a ban!
I searched the ingredients of Miracle Gro, a very popular plant food.

Miracle Gro Ingredients | Garden Guides
Copper

Actual copper content is 0.07 percent. Copper helps plants reproduce, build strong cell walls and reduce radicals. A deficiency will lead to stunted growth, bluish-green veins and poor tissue development.

0.07% is a LOT more than your "scary number", and plants love this stuff.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:24   #168
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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0.07% is a LOT more than your "scary number", and plants love this stuff.
So your point is that because plant food has a relatively high percentage of copper in it, we shouldn't be concerned about copper loading in our coastal waterways?
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:28   #169
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

Everywhere you turn, there is somebody screaming, "The Sky is Falling!" usually followed by either "Vote for Me" or "Donate Here".

It's getting pretty old.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:40   #170
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
I searched the ingredients of Miracle Gro, a very popular plant food.

Miracle Gro Ingredients | Garden Guides
Copper

Actual copper content is 0.07 percent. Copper helps plants reproduce, build strong cell walls and reduce radicals. A deficiency will lead to stunted growth, bluish-green veins and poor tissue development.



0.07% is a LOT more than your "scary number", and plants love this stuff.

Once again copper is not cuprous oxide. And just because many organisms need various minerals in certain amounts to get by does not mean multiplying the amount of that mineral in the environment many times over is a good idea. It's not. Typical rightie way of thinking, if a little copper is good for you, then a lot must be great! Plants love this stuff, hilarious! Go put some bottom paint, most of which are 60-70% or more cuprous oxide, on your garden and tell me how it turns out for you and your plants, if you can from the hospital. By this logic just because you need a teeny bit of iron in your diet you should be putting rust in everything you eat, drink, or breath.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:41   #171
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

Thank God I read this thread! I just threw out the copper bracelet I have worn for twenty years to fight off the ravages of arthritis. I threw it in the ocean... Capt Phil
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:47   #172
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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I bet it could. For example, most vessels that are exempt from the copper ban in Washington (and SB 623 in California) are already regulated for copper discharges by the USEPA's Vessel General Permit.

http://www.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/vessel_vgp_permit.pdf
As I read the regulation you site, I still don't see where it applies to pleasure boats above 65 feet. Looks like it regulates commercial boats.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:48   #173
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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Thank God I read this thread! I just threw out the copper bracelet I have worn for twenty years to fight off the ravages of arthritis. I threw it in the ocean... Capt Phil
I wouldn't worry about it. Since the leach rates of cuprous oxide from bottom paint work out to two lbs. per year for your average 30' sailboat, you've been throwing a whole lot of copper bracelets worth in to the water with your big 'ol DeFever for as long as you've had it. That's just a drop in the bucket compared to the damage you and I have already done with our bottom paint. Plus it will take a very long time to degrade in that form, unlike cuprous oxide, which is specifically designed to do just that so as to be more easily metabolized by the critters we are trying to poison with it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:49   #174
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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As I read the regulation you site, I still don't see where it applies to pleasure boats above 65 feet. Looks like it regulates commercial boats.

Yes, commercial boats would make up "most boats over 65 feet" just as fstbttms said.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:13   #175
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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As I read the regulation you site, I still don't see where it applies to pleasure boats above 65 feet. Looks like it regulates commercial boats.
That's the point. The reason commercial vessels are exempted from copper paint legislation is that commercial vessels are already regulated by the Vessel General Permit.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:54   #176
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

I just looked up "Copper Sulphate"and its' uses. Over 200,000 tons used per anum worldwide in every thing from wood preservation to fattening pigs and chickens for market as well as a component of bottom paint. I think a lot more copper is finding its' way into the environment for good or ill from these sources than from the bottoms of pleasure craft. I think someone needs to do a rethink of this whole issue. That's just my opinion but I'm probably missing something.
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Old 11-01-2012, 14:36   #177
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

Most of those uses wouldn't be as politically soft as a target.
That's why we're in the cross hairs.
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Old 11-01-2012, 14:40   #178
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

I don't know about the US but in Canada it's been illegal to use a copper based wood preservative in marine applications for a long time.
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Old 11-01-2012, 15:10   #179
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Re: Washington State Copper Paint Law

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I don't know about the US but in Canada it's been illegal to use a copper based wood preservative in marine applications for a long time.

Here too. In fact some of the long-bearded old time ships carpenters here have secret stashes of the stuff which they swear by and still use illegally. One of the common methods is to keep very old cans of bottom paint which dry up and separate out. The dark green liquid that ends up floating on top of the puck of settled out dried up crap is used to treat wood below the waterline. Very old-school method of getting around the fact that you can't buy the stuff here anymore.
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Old 12-01-2012, 06:02   #180
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The average concentration of copper in the earth crust is 50ppm. This is in any form, from pure copper to the oxydized state as used in paint (which occurs natural in addition to manufacturing).

For concentrations being higher in harbours compared to other coastal waters, consider that harbours are often formed at river entrances or estuaries where soil runoff from enormous areas is carried to by these rivers and connecting canals etc.

If everybody would put the money and effort into further development of the boat scrubbing robot instead of these political tainted research projects, we could have done away with antifouling completely by now. Even the environment based groups are reliant on pollution for their existance. Think.

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