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Old 15-03-2011, 07:02   #16
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Re: Vacuum Panels

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Originally Posted by Cptn Happy View Post
Aspen Aerogel advertises this product in 5cm(.2in.) and 10cm(.4in.) sheets. I am considering this latter alternative. Cptn Happy
You may not be happy to hear this, but it could affect your decision- 10cm is about 4 inches, not .4

10mm is .4 inches.
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Old 15-03-2011, 19:03   #17
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Re: Vacuum Panels

Aspen Aerogel's website says they sell the material in 5 and 10 cm thicknesses. This is .2 and .4 inches respectively. If I use this material I plan on layering 5 sheets to create an R 20.5 two inch insulation barrier. I also plan on "sandwiching" it between two one inch R-5 poly panels for protection. This will create the requisite R-30 insulation for a tropical freezer box using a total of three inches on all sides. By the way, I spoke to someone at Aspen and, for "subambient' application they recommend their "Cryo" version which has a aluminum foil type sheet laminated to the face of the material, which is supposed to further inhibit moisture penetration.
Vacuum panels are generally one inch thick and are reputed to be R-40. You CAN buy them from Nanopore Inc in Alberququre(sp), the supplier of vip panels to Glacier Bay. Nanopore requires a minimum $1,000 order. I spoke w/ Bill Smith the sales manager. He claims their panels are superior to others that somehow incorporate fiberglass in their construction. You can read their website for the explaination for this purported superiority However, their panels are not encased in the shell that GB uses, so you would have to protect them in some way. Poly board might do the trick. I'm thinking about it. Anyway, there's lots to learn by Googling insulation, etc.

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Old 15-03-2011, 20:24   #18
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Re: Vacuum Panels

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Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
Urathane foam or isocyanate foam is best... blue foam or styrofoam is not so good.
That would be contrary to all the respectable published research. Urethanes and isocyanate are quite hydroscopic ... and constructing a good long term moisture seal is unlikely.
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Old 16-03-2011, 08:53   #19
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Re: Vacuum Panels

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Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
Be aware that foam looses insulation value if it is exposed to the air and absorbs water vapor over the years. For this reason I'd seal it 100% inside and out, (glass or glassed ply panels), and it doesn't hurt to add the foil outer shield as well. The lid might still call for a vacuum panel, if you want it thin, but this is the least important, so could be 4" thick. Of coarse the gasket seal IS very important.

Urathane foam or isocyanate foam is best... blue foam or styrafoam is not so good.

Lotsa luck, Mark
Mark,
Unfortunately, you've got the properties of the different types of "foam" reversed....

1) Extruded Polystyrene ("Blue" board and "Pink" board) do NOT absorb moisture / water.....these boards do NOT require any "moisture sealing" at all....in addition to my current extruded polyboard surrounding my frig, being dry as a bone for 6 - 7 years now, I placed a piece under a concrete paving stone in the bottom of a 8' deep swimming pool and checked it every week for 6+ months, compared to the same sized piece sitting inside a 1 gallon zip-lick bag on the kitchen counter at home.....and both pices weighed the same.....

(howeverm expanded polystyrene / white styrofoam, DOES absorb moisture....)

2) Polyurathane foam does absorb moisture over time.....

3) Polyisocyanurate foam ("celotex" / "thermax") is the worst, as it absorbs moisture / water quickest....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

+! on Aerogels and Aspen Aerogel.....
But, they are difficult to work with and pricey....

Mark is correct that if you've got the room, and are starting from scratch, foam board is still the best way to go, dollars vs. results....



I wrote a very detailed and referenced post on the topic of frig/freezer insulation on the SSCA disc board....
Have a read.....
SSCA Discussion Board • View topic - Wanted - Fridge & Freezer recommendation - galley reno

Also, have a look directly as what I've done without the expense of a galley refit, nor vauum panels....(but I do love the Glacier Bay Aerogel-cored Vacuum panels)
Frig/Freezer




I hope this helps...

Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 16-03-2011, 09:51   #20
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Re: Vacuum Panels

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Originally Posted by daddle View Post
That would be contrary to all the respectable published research. Urethanes and isocyanate are quite hydroscopic ... and constructing a good long term moisture seal is unlikely.

I respectfully don't agree on either count. (It is "Blue foam" & "Styrofoam' to avoid, as they are proportionately poor insulators).

I spoke to the president of Technautics about this just two days ago, and these are still the recommended foams, 100% SEALED OF COARSE. In our case, it is certainly 100% sealed! Our box is lined inside with epoxy glassed ply, then fillets in all corners, and after the lid is glued and glassed over, the entire interior got about 8 coats of white pigmented 100% solids epoxy, as a gel coat. The entire exterior is heavily epoxy glassed as well, with numerous 100% solids epoxy top coats. This was followed by a layer of aluminum foil as a radiant barrier. It is in fact sealed enough to pull a vacuum in the box itself If I felt the need, and I'm confident that it would remain. I have built an entire ama this tight! So much so, that I couldn't open the hatch in the morning, due to the cool air induced vacuum! I finally had to drill a small weep hole in the combing to relieve the vacuum.

I do believe that ALL foams, even the closed cell foams, can absorb water vapor over years, making them much less efficient insulators. Many old boats have the outside of their foam insulation, wide open to the atmosphere! It takes years, but performance WILL go down, as the foam takes on moisture. For this reason I suggest that IF one wants a well insulated box to stay that way, IT MUST BE HERMETICALLY SEALED, 100%, on all sides. Even where screw holes enter the box for the cold plate or lid hinges. We used large solid epoxy plugs here, (before glassing), so that when we drilled the holes later, we were drilling into solid plastic, and not the interior of the box.

Mark
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Old 16-03-2011, 10:32   #21
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Re: Vacuum Panels

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Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Mark,
Unfortunately, you've got the properties of the different types of "foam" reversed....

1) Extruded Polystyrene ("Blue" board and "Pink" board) do NOT absorb moisture / water.....these boards do NOT require any "moisture sealing" at all....in addition to my current extruded polyboard surrounding my frig, being dry as a bone for 6 - 7 years now, I placed a piece under a concrete paving stone in the bottom of a 8' deep swimming pool and checked it every week for 6+ months, compared to the same sized piece sitting inside a 1 gallon zip-lick bag on the kitchen counter at home.....and both pices weighed the same.....

(howeverm expanded polystyrene / white styrofoam, DOES absorb moisture....)

2) Polyurathane foam does absorb moisture over time.....

3) Polyisocyanurate foam ("celotex" / "thermax") is the worst, as it absorbs moisture / water quickest....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

+! on Aerogels and Aspen Aerogel.....
But, they are difficult to work with and pricey....

Mark is correct that if you've got the room, and are starting from scratch, foam board is still the best way to go, dollars vs. results....



I wrote a very detailed and referenced post on the topic of frig/freezer insulation on the SSCA disc board....
Have a read.....
SSCA Discussion Board • View topic - Wanted - Fridge & Freezer recommendation - galley reno

Also, have a look directly as what I've done without the expense of a galley refit, nor vauum panels....(but I do love the Glacier Bay Aerogel-cored Vacuum panels)
Frig/Freezer




I hope this helps...

Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

After months of refrigeration research, I went with both "VacuPanels" AND the MOST recommend foams, of what was available at the time... 1999. (Both Blue foam, and the large beaded white Styrafoam, Like from Lowes, were NOT considered appropriate.)

I got my urethane foam from a huge commercial supplier of refrigeration companies. I have not researched this since, and don't know what would be considered the best insulator now.

As to the issue of water absorption... I have seen numerous "closed cell" foam core boats, that were supposed to be immune to water absorption, but became waterlogged over long enough years of exposure. For this reason, I don't believe that there IS a water proof insulating foam. Obviously, some are more so than others, but I consider water absorption to be secondary to insulation value, IF the foam is kept bone dry!

To me, choosing a more water resistant foam, even if less of an insulator, so you can avoid the considerable hassle of sealing it up 100%, is a waste of time.

I personally, would rather use the best "insulating" vacuum panels, and/or foam panels, and then make a refrigerator that is 100% sealed! Why spend all that effort and money on "halfway measures", like leaving the foam open to the atmosphere? Of coarse... that's just how I'm wired. (Admittedly, my box did take all day, all summer, for two people)!

IF you have no plan to seal up your box 100%, on all sides, then less water absorption over the years, becomes of paramount importance! As to these foams, I have no idea, and leave it up to others that have researched the subject, like apparently John has... There is a lot of new technology out there since 1999!

I might add. If you spend the majority of your time on the hook, VS at sea, then cutting your refrigeration Ah in half, (however you do it), is the MOST important thing you can do to vastly reduce your boat's energy consumption. It is the BIG user. Adding LED lights and the like, are just icing on the cake, that can be added over time. REFRIGERATION IS THE BIG DEAL!

Best of luck to all,

Mark
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Old 16-03-2011, 13:01   #22
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Re: Vacuum Panels

Mark,
With as much respect and politeness as can be communicated here in an on-line forum, I believe you are mixing up many different things....

Sorry to be so blunt about it....
But, the facts are easily available from the respective manufacturers....
(Dow, Owens Corning, Celotex, etc.)

And, further, with respect to Technautics (they are good guys, BTW!), I'm certain that you are mixing up some things that they told you....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
After months of refrigeration research, I went with both "VacuPanels" AND the MOST recommend foams, of what was available at the time... 1999. (Both Blue foam, and the large beaded white Styrafoam, Like from Lowes, were NOT considered appropriate.)
"White" Styrofoam is expanded polystyrene, and is NOT appropriate.....but "Blue" board, manufactured by Dow (and it's "Pink" cousin, manufactured by Owens Corning) is extruded polystrene and IS perfectly appropriate, and IS recommended.....
"Thermax" (manufactured by Celotex), etc. is foil-backed polyisocyanurate, and is a VERY bad idea for marine refrig insulation, as it absorbs moisture very quickly.....
These are not my opinions, but are those of the manufacture reps who market/sell these products, and info taken directly from the manufactures themselves (such as warnings to protect polyiso boards from moisture and direct wording stating that their extruded polystyrene boards do NOT absorb moisture and do notneed to be protected from moisture.....

Nobody who know marine refrig would ever recommend "white" styrofoam, but they would recoomend "blue" or "pink" board.....
Heck, even Glacier Bay recommends "blue" and "pink" extruded polystyrene board as the best marine refrigeration insulating material available, except of course for aerogels and their aerogel-cored vacuum panels.....





Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
I got my urethane foam from a huge commercial supplier of refrigeration companies. I have not researched this since, and don't know what would be considered the best insulator now.
Nothing wrong with urethane foam (almost all boat builders use it), as long as you understand that it DOES absorb moisture over time...
It does take years (depending on the application / where the boat is cruising, it may take 5-10 years before there's a noticable change.....and if you do-it-yourself, it will probably be a much better job than when done on a production line...)






Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
As to the issue of water absorption... I have seen numerous "closed cell" foam core boats, that were supposed to be immune to water absorption, but became waterlogged over long enough years of exposure.
I now see the problem....you are equating some insulation as "clsoed cell", vs. others that you consider "open cell"???
Do I understand correctly????

The probelm is that they are mostly all "clsoed cell" foams.....but some are not prone to moisture absorbtion, and some are....

Yeah, it IS confusing.....
And, it is no surprise that many marine refrigeration "experts" don't really undertstand it, let alone most boat owners

I realize that many don't follow links....but.....as I wrote earlier, Richard Kollmann is the guy to turn to for these matters....
Those that wish the "definitive" answers on marine refrigeration (including insulation), please have a look at Richard Kollmann's website and buy his books!!!!
KollmannMarine Boat Refrigeration Specialist
He's the man!!!

And, also don't forget the thread I referenced earlier....
SSCA Discussion Board • View topic - Wanted - Fridge & Freezer recommendation - galley reno

Until then, perhaps this will help.....(a repost from another thread that is close to what was originally queried here)
Quote:
.....not knowing your energy storage / generation capabilities, it is almost impossible for you (or anyone else) to make decisions on refrig/freezer systems.....

Dan, please understand I'm not ducking the questions you posed, but rather trying to impress on you that your application, your desires, and your energy systems are what will determine what type, size, cost, and efficiencies of refrig / freezer system that you'll choose.....

So, with that stated.....here are some thoughts, website links, and experiences....


3) It is the insulation that will make or break the system......NO matter what unit you have, it is the insulation that counts the most!!!

4) And (assuming we're talking about 12vdc powered Dan Foss-based systems), NO matter what the manufacturers tell you, there are greater variations between different users and their different lifestyles, etc. than there are between different brands of refrigeration units...
The actual quoted "efficiencies" and/or "amps consumed per day", will be very close if they were all used in the same boxes, with the same usage patterns.....

5) Now here's the BIG fly in the mix.....what type of energy system do you have on board???
In my opinion, this is SO important to your decisions, that you should NOT even attempt to make refrig/freezer size decisions until you have a handle on this....

You can use these websites to calculate the interior box volume, and it's heat loading, based on the various insulation thicknesses.....
http://www.glacierbay.com/Heatload_calc ... ilders.htm
http://www.glacierbay.com/Heatload_calc ... atload.htm

I'm not clear whether your dimensions are your current box interior dimensions/volume, or are the actual space you have available in the galley to work with (external dimensions) to build the boxes in....
So, use whichever calculator works for your application/dimensions....


I believe a DanFoss BD-50 system (such as the AB "Cold Machine") are designed to move about 650 BTU's per hour......just to give you an idea of how much run time you may experience (at about 4 - 5 amps per hour)....



6) In general, if you have enough alternative energy generation (primarily solar) and adequate storage (decent sized battery bank), you can have a frig and freezer that works well and still be energy independent...

On my current boat, I have 520 watts of un-shaded solar (supplemented by a towed-water-gen, for cloudy days on long passages), a nice-sized battery bank (825 A/H), and only some basic, but significant, improvements to my frig/freezer insulation......
Which allows me to keep fresh food in my ~ 5 cu ft frig and frozen foods (including ice cream and ice cubes) in my ~ 5 cu ft freezer......being energy independent (no fossil fuels burned) for weeks / months at a time...
I've found that I have enough interior volume in the boxes for fresh / frozen food, for a crew of 4 hearty-eating souls, for a period of 5 - 6 weeks, including ice cream, ice cubes, etc....and certainly could extend that a few weeks if I eliminated the large amount of ice......

Here are a few pages of text and photos, detailing my set-up....
http://www.c470.jerodisys.com/470pix/47137.htm
http://www.c470.jerodisys.com/470pix/47004.htm
http://www.c470.jerodisys.com/470pix/47074.htm



dantaden wrote:2) Cooler box panels and insulation recommendations – material to use and manufacturers either marine specific or perhaps RV or Commercial.
7) As for insulation goes....you have basically 3 types to choose from....
a) Extruded polystyrene (such as Dow's "blue board" or Owens Corning's "pink board"), which is inexpensive, easy to work with, and gives very good results.....
It does NOT absorb moisture, needs no special handling / construction, and lasts a long time (~ 25+ years)....
These have an R-value of about R-5 per inch....
b) Aerogel materials, which have excellent insulating properties, but are rather expensive and very messy / difficult to work with.....as well as not being widely available (you'll need to order from the factories, such as in Colorado, etc.)....
These have an R-value of about R-9 per inch.....
c) Aerogel-cored Vacuum Insulation Panels, currently only marketed to the marine market by Glacier Bay. are VERY expensive.......(Glacier Bay Ultra-R)
They are custom-made for you application, and they will give you a great deal of support....(actually doing the box design, etc. for free if you ask them)
They DO work well, and last a long time.....with a 25 year warranty.....
They have an R-value of about R-36 per inch (typical panel thickness is 1.3", including the heavy-duty facing....with an R-value of R-36...at 25 years of age....)
These are NOT the cheap "VIP" panels that have caused many a boat owner to swear at their frig.....these Glacier Bay panels DO work, DO work very well, and DO last a long time......BUT, they are very expensive (figure $3000 - $4000+ for a typical set-up...)


8 ) Read over Glacier Bay's excellent info on refrigeration
insulation......They are NOT trying to "sell" you on buying their products
at all.......they really do have a LOT of VERY good info......
http://www.glacierbay.com/gbInsultest.asp
http://www.glacierbay.com/Instresult.asp
http://www.glacierbay.com/Insultest.asp
http://www.glacierbay.com/Heattype.asp
http://www.glacierbay.com/Heatprop.asp

And the page I found most enlightening:
http://www.glacierbay.com/vacptest.asp

Follow all the links around, and you learn a LOT...


9 ) Understand that a LOT of what you hear talked about regarding insulation
is wrong......sorry to sound so arrogant, but there's quite a bit of
mis-information out there, combined with the bravado / ego of so many
"experts" (fellow cruising sailors), and sometimes influenced with alcohol

And, you'll often find that those cruisers who've made huge mistakes, are unwilling to admit it....and some even praise their approach even in the face of both the manufacturer's contrary statements and scientific evidence....
So, the best advice here is:
Do the homework.....read the real scientific test results....and read the info from the manufacturer, comparing that to the test results.....

10 ) One such "insulation myth" is that foil-backed insulation, or using foil in your
insulation process, is an absolute......(yes, it does help a bit....but only
with radiant heat, from sunshine or engine / exhaust-riser systems....which
makes up ~ 5% of heat troubles on board...)
On most insulation boards that have foil attached, it is there as a moisture
barrier, which is a tip off that this particular insulation board WILL
absorb moisture and should not be considered for refrigeration insulation on
board......(the temps were dealing with make condensation of the air's
moisture a problem, where it would NOT be if this board was used for wall
insulation in a home, which is was designed for....)
I have a foil-backed, hi-temp, water-heater blanket insulation material (~
3/8" thick), on the outside of my other insulation, in areas where there IS
radiant heat (next to the engine compartment, aqua-lift, and exhaust
hoses....and on the oven/stove side of the freezer...)

11 ) Do NOT underestimate the bad effect of moisture absorption into the
insulation if you choose the "wrong" type.....Which is explained by Glacier
Bay, much better than I can...
Use only EXTRUDED polystyrene board (Owens Corning "pink", or Dow "blue")
for your rigid insulation materials, and you'll be fine......if you use a
polyisocyanurate insulating board ("thermax" / "celotex") you'll have
problems in the near future, as it WILL absorb moisture in a short amount of
time (probably < 1 year) and you'll be doing this all over again!!!
These polyiso boards ("thermax" / "celotex") are foil-backed, and are
designed for insulating walls in homes, where they are not subjected to the
abuse of refrigeration use, nor are they designed for such high moisture
areas (constant condensation) as inside or around a frig....

12) Starting in 2004, I embarked on a "short" experiment......which turned into
a long-term project,
I wished to improve the refrigerator and freezer insulation on my C470,
thereby allowing me to have an ice-cold freezer (0 to 8 degrees F) and a
cold frig (32 - 38 degrees F), without using too much electrical power, nor
spending many 1000's of $$$$ on Glacier Bay's very nice vacuum insulation
panels.....

So, here's what I've done.....and what I've accomplished.....
Depending on the time of the year, and my exact usage, my energy consumption of my frig / freezer is typically from 40 - 60 A/H per day, in the Bahamas, Carib, etc. with ice cream in the freezer...
{See photos showing an empty freezer at 7 - 8 degrees and an almost empty
frig at 32-33 degrees.....all with the the thermostat set at about 5.5 (on a
scale of 1 to 7), and ambient air temps in the mid 80's.....}
See the details (and photos) here, but be aware that I wrote this article specifically for those owners of sisterships of mine, so there are probably too many minute details specific to my boat/galley/frig/freezer, but if you look at the "big picture" you'll get the jist.....spending $100 - $200 will get you great insulation and decent frig/freezer boxes....
http://www.c470.jerodisys.com/470pix/47137.htm

13) As for the actual "box material".....
I'd recommend thin fiberglass board (1/8" white GRP, design for kitchen/bath), attached to the insulating board, makes an excellent interior of your boxes......and you can use "Starboard" or marine-ply (with a couple coats of epoxy or spar varnish) for any exterior structure of the "boxes" (not the "inside")......





................to re-state the above, it is the insulation that makes the system work (or not).....
NO mater what brand or model unit you choose, if your insulation sucks, so will your frig/freezer system...and vice versa....

16) There is quite a consensus that the 12vdc Dan Foss-based refrigeration / freezer systems are the only way to go for 95%+ of cruisers......they'll keep your food fresh for weeks and weeks, whether you're on-board or not....and will still be running years and years from now with little maintenance (keep the condenser coils/fins, and fan, clean of dust/debris).....

There is NO need for water cooling of these units.....and were not designed for water cooling.....
I will admit that there is some disagreement on this point, although Richard Kollmann has posted quite a bit about the facts, many are not convinced....
So, even if you're one of those that remain un-convinced of the lack of need for water-cooling , simply ask for a written guarantee of higher energy efficiency of the "water-cooled" vs. "air-cooled" unit, and tell the dealer that you will be comparing the power used.....I think you'll get the gist....

12bdc Dan Foss-based systems are simple, inexpensive, reliable (work 365 days/year, year after year....for a long time), and use the same basic design as 99% of all consumer refrigerators / freezers used worldwide, for over 40 years.....

I personally have had good experience with Adler Barbour, and can recommend them (AB "Cold Machine") very highly....
My current AB Cold Machine (Dan Foss BD-50 based system) is almost 12 years old, and except for an hour every few months, typically runs for a couple years straight at a time....and still works as new....


17) On a mid-sized cruising sailboat, as opposed to a large trawler, engine-driven refrig/freezing saw its day pass almost 20 years ago.....
I cannot fathom anyone even considering it!!!!


18) Dan, obviously there is quite a bit more to this subject, but as I wrote above it is difficult to make specific recommendations....but if pushed, I'd recommend 4" - 6" of blue or pink board (or the Glacier Bay Ultra-R Vacuum panels if you've got the $$$), and the AB Cold Machine.....lots of un-shaded solar, etc...

Using a top-opening freezer (deeper the better), and a top-opening (or both top and side opening) frig....using the Glacier Bay Ultra-R vacuum-insulated lids / hatches.....
If your boxes are adjacent, you CAN do a spill-over system that WILL work well, but it might take some experimentation to get the "spill-over" openings the correct size....




I do hope this helps....

Fair winds, and cool drinks....
John




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
For this reason, I don't believe that there IS a water proof insulating foam. Obviously, some are more so than others, but I consider water absorption to be secondary to insulation value, IF the foam is kept bone dry!
To me, choosing a more water resistant foam, even if less of an insulator, so you can avoid the considerable hassle of sealing it up 100%, is a waste of time.
Mark has a point....IF you can keep the insulation "bone dry", but unless you're cruising in very unusual places you're never going to be able to do that, no matter how well you seal the insulation......(professionals can do a good job, but I doubt any of us DIY'ers could ever seal insulation enough to keep out the moisture.....so using insulation that does NOT absorb moisture is a GOOD idea.....)

~~~~Opinion alert~~~~
In my opinion, moisture absorbtion is underestimated by many.....and should be considered when making insulation decisions....
Others may have differing opinions, and that's okay with me.....everyone is entitled to their own opinion.....
~~~~End of Opinion~~~~




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
I personally, would rather use the best "insulating" vacuum panels, and/or foam panels, and then make a refrigerator that is 100% sealed! Why spend all that effort and money on "halfway measures", like leaving the foam open to the atmosphere? Of coarse... that's just how I'm wired. (Admittedly, my box did take all day, all summer, for two people)!

IF you have no plan to seal up your box 100%, on all sides, then less water absorption over the years, becomes of paramount importance! As to these foams, I have no idea, and leave it up to others that have researched the subject, like apparently John has... There is a lot of new technology out there since 1999!
I agree that using the "best" insulating materials is a good idea.....but in my opinion, that doesn't necessarily mean the one with the highest R value per inch, or at least not the one with the highest initial R value....but rather the material that will provide the "best" insulation over a long time, and that you can afford....
Mark and I diaagree a bit here.....but not a big deal....




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
I might add. If you spend the majority of your time on the hook, VS at sea, then cutting your refrigeration Ah in half, (however you do it), is the MOST important thing you can do to vastly reduce your boat's energy consumption. It is the BIG user. Adding LED lights and the like, are just icing on the cake, that can be added over time. REFRIGERATION IS THE BIG DEAL!
Here is where we AGREE 100%!!!!!!!!!!!

Although, those that do spend a lot of time at sea CAN really benefit from an LED Tri-Color on the masthead....as this can save you about 50 A/H's per day (versus incandecsent bulbs) when under sail at sea.....



FAir winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 16-03-2011, 19:56   #23
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Re: Vacuum Panels

Some interesting information here also on related topic.
Building an Ice Box
and
Building an Ice Box
But all of it is worth reading.

Cheers,
Extemp.
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Old 04-01-2012, 14:58   #24
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Re: Vacuum Panels

I've had the panels for 10 years and they're great. But I think GB is now out of the panel business, unfortunately.
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:41   #25
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Re: Vacuum Panels

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, svinshallah.
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Old 05-01-2012, 20:49   #26
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Re: Vacuum Panels

John, A very well done. Many thanks. I wish I had read your explanation first, it would have saved me lots of time and effort to come to the same conclusion.
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Old 05-01-2012, 20:57   #27
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Re: Vacuum Panels

has anyone tried rparts.com ?

I would love a pre made hatch but they cost so much and glacier bay is worse. Any other sources?
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Old 13-10-2012, 16:02   #28
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Re: Vacuum Panels

And old thread, but all still relevant, so I'll throw in another possibility. Have someone weld up a 1" double walled freezer out of stainless steel with the gap filled with perlite. Then pull a vacuum on it with a vacuum pump. Might have to re-pull the vacuum every few years (easy with the right valve).
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Old 17-06-2013, 15:49   #29
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Originally Posted by jonr View Post
And old thread, but all still relevant, so I'll throw in another possibility. Have someone weld up a 1" double walled freezer out of stainless steel with the gap filled with perlite. Then pull a vacuum on it with a vacuum pump. Might have to re-pull the vacuum every few years (easy with the right valve).
R parts make VIP but are the worst supplier I have ever had to do business with in 35 years. Terrible customer service. Six months and still don't have all the panels for frig rebuild. I've built boats in less time.
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Old 17-06-2013, 16:49   #30
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Re: Vacuum Panels

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Originally Posted by Mundinho View Post
I am looking to rebuilt my refrigiration box. I would like to use vacuum panels in order to keep same internal space with higher insulation values. I have only come accross Glacier Bay vacuum panels for sale so far. (A) Does anyone knows of another supplier in USA of vacuum panels and (B) Does anyone have any good / bad experience with Glacier Bay panels.

It is quite costly so I want to make sure I have my home work done.

Thanks, Peter A S


Peter,
If you look at past pages on the "Trimarans/Searunner" thread, there is an abundance of information on how we built our "God's own refrigerator"! We used every possible practice for the most efficient refrigerator possible, based on what was available 14 years ago. Our refrigerator consumes an average of < 30 Ah/day.

This has worked flawlessly and this efficiently, from the sweltering heat up the Rio Dulce, to Trinidad in the summer.

14 years ago... We used "VacuPanel" brand, which no longer sells to the public. A frequent poster on the Searunner thread, "Roy", has just built a similarly efficient refrigerator, and used a different brand of vacuum panel. It was not Glacier Bay.

I suggest that you read back on that thread, for our refrigerator's carefully detailed design specifics, and Roy's recently built system as well. Then send him a PM if necessary, regarding his currently available brand of vacuum panels.

IF you read in depth about our design's construction, you will see that by 100% encapsulating the layers of foam and the vacuum panels that are gently nestled between them, to the point that the entire box is submersible (for decades), You'll see that loosing efficiency over the years from moisture permeating the foam, is just not an issue. Moisture (water vapor), can NOT get in. After 14 trouble free "0" issues "0" maintenance years, (12 as full time liveaboards), our box is as efficient as day 1.

If you haven't got the room for 7" thick foam walls on your refer, vacuum panels offer the same insulation value (With a layer of foam on each side, as we did), and it does so without all of the bulk.

IF, on the other hand, you have an abundance of room, and lack a boatbuilder's skills, then using 6" to 7" of foam, (of the minimally absorbing types), and sealing it all up as best that you can, will still make a pretty damned good box!

Hope this helps,
Mark
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