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Old 03-01-2016, 20:10   #91
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

I would use product that mainesail (compass marine) recommends over any other. His attention to detail and rigorous testing to ensure product is fit for purpose is superb.
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Old 03-01-2016, 20:31   #92
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

My deck hardware was installed with 5200 about 29 years ago. So far no leaks. I also know how to remove metal fittings, mounted to fiberglass, with 5200. It's really not hard. As has been stated, heat the metal and it pops right off.

I really feel it's important for the sealant to bond to both surfaces to maintain water tight integrity.
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Old 04-01-2016, 04:34   #93
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

Camper World has white butyl tape for a very reasonable price. They also have grey but at the least the store I went to didn't have the black stuff which is all I have used so far. As mentioned in earlier replies the black stuff is tough to work with; somebody referred to it as the black mamba.
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Old 04-01-2016, 04:43   #94
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by scottthardin View Post
Camper World has white butyl tape for a very reasonable price. They also have grey but at the least the store I went to didn't have the black stuff which is all I have used so far. As mentioned in earlier replies the black stuff is tough to work with; somebody referred to it as the black mamba.

Nothing that camping world has is really the right stuff. It's a butyl putty, rather than a high temp glazing tape.


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Old 04-01-2016, 05:20   #95
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

I was curious about that aspect but the packaging says "100% butyl rubber" and doesn't contain oils like "butyl putty".
Superflex Butyl Tape, 3/4" X 60' - Alpha Systems Llc QM13018*34 - Roof Maintenance & Repair - Camping World

Not being a butyl expert and only having experience with the black stuff sourced from auto parts stores, is the 100% rubber aspect important?
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:00   #96
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by scottthardin View Post
Camper World has white butyl tape for a very reasonable price. They also have grey but at the least the store I went to didn't have the black stuff which is all I have used so far. As mentioned in earlier replies the black stuff is tough to work with; somebody referred to it as the black mamba.
When I had spoken with disdain of the "Black Mamba" I was speaking of the black "mastic" butyl material....



Of course, the color selection is not the problem, but the type of butyl material is apparently critical. I think the advise recommending the "Bed It" butyl tape is wise and I would have been pleased with my first attempt at "butyl" if I had the right material and not the roll of mastic.

I will also add that I am a great fan of 3M5200. The very complaint made by so many that it's adhesion is so strong causes me to favor it's application.

It's best to have a multiple selection of "tools" in the chest for different needs!
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:25   #97
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

the black stuff in your picture is what I used to bed my new portlights and while a bit messy it seems to have worked very well in terms of a seal. And it was my first use of butyl. This black stuff is very sticky and I thought the black mamba term was appropriate.

In terms of the bashing of 5200 and silicone that my thread perhaps prompted, I recently used silicone on some wiring connections and I recently used 5200 to secure wood mounts inside my cockpit locker to serve as attachment points for locker organization of my emergency tiller and a few other things. I am definitely a fan of butyl but the "forbidden" stuff will still have a place on my boat.

And I must say I very much enjoy (and learn from) this forum.
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:35   #98
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by scottthardin View Post
the black stuff in your picture is what I used to bed my new portlights and while a bit messy it seems to have worked very well in terms of a seal. And it was my first use of butyl. This black stuff is very sticky and I thought the black mamba term was appropriate.

In terms of the bashing of 5200 and silicone that my thread perhaps prompted, I recently used silicone on some wiring connections and I recently used 5200 to secure wood mounts inside my cockpit locker to serve as attachment points for locker organization of my emergency tiller and a few other things. I am definitely a fan of butyl but the "forbidden" stuff will still have a place on my boat.

And I must say I very much enjoy (and learn from) this forum.
This seems to be the best approach. There is no "wrong" material, 'just the wrong application. As scotthardin cites his use of silicone, 5200, and even the "black mamba", the wisdom seems to be in selecting when and where to apply.
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:48   #99
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
I have never encountered a part, properly secured and bedded with 5200, that has ever leaked within 20 years. I have encountered lots of parts, secured and bedded improperly, that have leaked within 2 years, including butyl.

Your logic is faulty and self-fulfilling - if it doesn't leak, it is due to the superiority of 5200. If it leaks, the 5200 was not properly secured and bedded.

I can show you our 18yr old hatches that were properly secured and bedded with 5200 that started leaking in the past year. Now it is impossible to remove them to rebed without destroying them, and I am reduced to just putting goop along the outside edges to stop the leaking - this lasts 6 months.

Not to mention the literally thousands of boats out there whose hull deck joints were just fine for 20yrs before leaking.

As for easy to remove metal fittings, I can also show you our helm seat pedestal whose 12"x12" aluminum mounting flange was buttered with 5200 before being bolted on. Removing that took heading it cherry red with an acetylene torch - and it still tore off a chunk of gelcoat and underlying mat.

Yes, 5200 is an excellent adhesive, but only a moderate sealant. The difference is that an adhesive is not primarily concerned with sealing, and can develop small cracks and channels through it over time without effecting its adhesive properties.

There is little need for strong adhesion in mounting hardware, and the moderate stickiness and resiliency of a good sealant is a better performing choice.

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Old 04-01-2016, 11:03   #100
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Your logic is faulty and self-fulfilling - if it doesn't leak, it is due to the superiority of 5200. If it leaks, the 5200 was not properly secured and bedded.
My point is, in many cases, a failed joint is blamed on the material (whatever that may be), when in fact IT WAS BAD INSTALLATION PRACTICE that caused the leak (and would have with any material, including Butyl).

Often what happens is an inexperienced boater gets some sealant from a local store, slaps it on incorrectly, and complains the sealant failed.

BS! The material didn't fail, he did!

Then the boater goes on the internet and starts reading articles about how to properly fasten deck hardware with Butyl tape. He buys the material, follows the instructions and low and behold it seals.

In all likelihood, it was not the different material that solved the issue, it was the correction of bad installation practice.

Proper bedding (with any material) requires proper practices to provide a reliable long life seal.

Done properly, the seal for 3M5200 bedded hardware can last the life of the boat.

Done improperly, any material, including Butyl WILL fail.

Quote:
I can show you our 18yr old hatches that were properly secured and bedded with 5200 that started leaking in the past year.
OK, please show me.

Quote:
Now it is impossible to remove them to rebed without destroying them, and I am reduced to just putting goop along the outside edges to stop the leaking - this lasts 6 months.
Are the hatches rigid metal framed. If so, just heat them up with a heat gun. If they are not rigid metal framed, 3M5200 should not have been used in the first place.

Anything that would allow future removal of the frame should have been used, for example Mono exterior residential caulk $5/tube, can be used now, capped, and used again 2 years from now, and several times in between.

Quote:
Not to mention the literally thousands of boats out there whose hull deck joints were just fine for 20yrs before leaking.
Yes, 20 years + does seem to be the life expectancy for 3M5200 hull/deck seam sealed joints. Which is damn good and certainly as good as hull deck seams sealed with Butyl, which also smears all over everything it comes in contact with for those 20 years.

Quote:
As for easy to remove metal fittings, I can also show you our helm seat pedestal whose 12"x12" aluminum mounting flange was buttered with 5200 before being bolted on.
Great! Please do so.

Quote:
Removing that took heading it cherry red with an acetylene torch - and it still tore off a chunk of gelcoat and underlying mat.
Sorry, but that is ridiculous. Acetylene? A heat gun will do just fine. For larger objects that will sink a lot of heat (like a seat pedestal) it will take quite a bit of time to bring the temperature up sufficient to soften the 3M5200. It sounds like way too much sealant was used. A 1/4" bead around the perimeter, and mounting holes, is all that is required.

Quote:
Yes, 5200 is an excellent adhesive, but only a moderate sealant.
Well, we agree on the adhesive properties, however, I rate it as an "excellent" sealant as well. I parts subject to constant flexing and working remained sealed for 20+ years, that's excellent.

Quote:
The difference is that an adhesive is not primarily concerned with sealing, and can develop small cracks and channels through it over time without effecting its adhesive properties.
I have never seen this "cracking" occur in 3M5200. (4200 and 4000UV, absolutely.)

Quote:
There is little need for strong adhesion in mounting hardware, and the moderate stickiness and resiliency of a good sealant is a better performing choice.
Well, I disagree with this. IMHO, if any sealant adhesion to a part fails, the joint is prone to leakage.

We use 3M5200 for stanchion bases exclusively.

A practice we sometimes employ, for boats with permanent fibreglass headliners, includes mounting deck hardware by embedding fasteners with large washers into the deck core with resin, and then bonding the part to the deck with 3M5200. This is ideal for parts such as rope clutches, organizers, and cheek blocks, that are subject to sheer versus tensile load.

This avoids the necessity of cutting access plates in the headliner for installing backing plates.

All I'm trying to point out here, is that there are different solutions for different requirements, and while Butyl tape can be a great solution for some applications, so can Silicone Sealant, 3M5200, and Buna N or corprene gaskets. I feel many on this forum and others "over promote" Butyl tape. IT is not the end all be all.

I have no special interest in 3M products.
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Old 04-01-2016, 11:23   #101
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

It does seem apparent that some people prefer certain sealants and adhesives over others. This should not surprise anyone. I suspect the manner in which people apply and remove these substances are factors in determining their preferences. It doesn't seem reasonable to make any absolute claims of right and wrong.

Here's another difference in procedure that works well for me. I never heat fittings to remove their bedding with 3M5200,- 'not that I'm opposed to heat! I have success removing material bedded with 5200 by using a filet knife or "sawing" through the material with a thin wire.
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:25   #102
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I don't think silicon has been used in 'boobies' for many years. I suppose 'boobies' is your word because not aloud to say 'titties' on CF

I've seen Butyl tape being used in the Followtheboat video's and it looks great. But I've not been able to find any Butyl in Australia. I generally used marine Silka but I'd like to get some Butyl to try as it looks much cleaner.
Try the places where glazers (glaziers?) buy their supplies.
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:34   #103
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by redhead View Post
Question to all you butyl users.

If I rebed say my stanchions with butyl, and the diesel deck fill is right next to one of the stanchions, (which it is), over the course of my life I am bound to slosh a bit of diesel when filling. I understand that even a slight exposure to petroleum product (even diesel exhaust) will degrade the butyl, thus breaking the seal.

My husband just said "You're going to get howled at".

I said, "So what?"

Any answers?
See post #19
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:34   #104
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by lateral View Post
I would use product that mainesail (compass marine) recommends over any other. His attention to detail and rigorous testing to ensure product is fit for purpose is superb.
I second this product from Maine Sail , this is damn sticky stuff . FANTASTIC!!

My hull to deck joint was put together using Butyl tape over 30 years ago no glued , and there is not a drop of water coming through it and it is till soft and doing it's job.

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Old 05-01-2016, 12:46   #105
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by chowdan View Post

I created a larger gasket on the plating that slides over the chainplate and screws into the deck, then put a bead around the screws and screwed the plate in place. An hour later i went back and screwed them down a bit more to tighten them up a bit. Butyl tape oozed out of the center where the plates fit.
There is a repair/modification, just like this, with a diagram, featured as a "Reader's Tip" in the current (February) edition of the UK magazine Practical Boat Owner.
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