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Old 21-12-2015, 14:37   #76
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
....
Yes, It can ooze in some applications. Some it doesn't matter (winch bases are often well hidden by the skirt). I don't understand the common statement that it oozes more in the tropics. It isn't any hotter in the topics than it is in many coastal areas in the summer. 100F is about it anywhere.
.....
Its not hotter but it probably lasts longer and is more consistently hot day and night for more months. I suspect you might have ooze issues in the desert too. Since the application usually has two plates being compressed if it gets soft enough, stuff oozes out -- the buytl never cures. At least that is my experience -- can't say it isn't an applicator problem.
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Old 22-12-2015, 07:52   #77
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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I am not going to admit it ever happened to me . . . .but I could imagine a situation where you accidentally overflowed a deck diesel fill and had diesel running down and sitting on the side deck and it took you a bit of time to mop it all up.
Right Evans?

I once heard about a guy that panicked because he was at a a busy fuel dock, and the trickle of excess fuel was slowly but patiently inching towards the end of the cap rail... All the while thinking... "why does one drop expand like the 4th of july display when it hits the surface"?

Merry Christmas to you and Beth...
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Old 22-12-2015, 08:57   #78
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Butyl tape is what holds the glass in place on skyscraper curtain wall systems that do not use pressure plates on the exterior. That ought to tell you something. Try a commercial glass shop for TremCo tape.

Since butyl has almost no adhesive properties, I doubt this statement. Instead, I bet you will find many of these glass systems held with 3M VHB tape. This tape is also becoming the norm for installing windshields and the like.

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Old 22-12-2015, 12:10   #79
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

Hudson Force I have wrestled the ( Black Mamba) myself and it was a PITA! The butyl tape Compass marine is so much easier to deal with and being gray is nice also if you try to clean even a micron of the black with a solvent it turns to a huge mess
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Old 22-12-2015, 12:34   #80
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

Therre were four or five direct links to Maine Sail's page. Those who have asked about tightening fasteners down have evidently never bothered to read the link, which has (gasp!) photographs of how to use the butyl tape and also detailed descriptions of the hours of time he spent trying to find the "right" tape which is not the crap ya buy at your hardware store.

Maine Sail is a trusted member of the boating community, has given back to all of us, time after time, and has a great product that can't be beat. Why go elsewhere and buy something that may, and most likely is, inferior? And Maine Sail explains, in the link, how he found it and what he was looking for.

The only place I use silicone on our boat is the Beckson ports. If you don't have Beckson ports you really don't need silicone on your boat.

I do my chainplates with butyl, too.

C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplate flix
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Old 23-12-2015, 13:18   #81
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

The bristol 27 that i bought is under going repairs currently.

We are replacing chainplates, rebedding ALL deck hardware with butyl tape.

Cleats, railing poles, winchs all are leaking onboard currently and were sealed with something that did not last or hold up over time thats for sure.

The sealant on the chainplates was sort of reddish looking, had no adhesion what so ever and cracked like no other. Its no wonder why everything is leaking. I'm not sure if this was a 3M 4000/4200/5200 sealant, but what ever it is, it is not holding up and is NOT worth ones money.

I am going through everything, counter sinking all the holes then rebedding with butyl tape.

I purchased 100ft of tape from Compass marine, but that was a $40 bill. The tape listed on BestMaterials that someone listed before looks exactly like the tape that I have.

Its grey with the brown wax paper + the hard cardboard center. I'm curious to know if this is the same stuff as the Bed-It tape. It's an ass ton cheaper too!

Back to the point i was originally trying to say, I disconnected the two lower fore stay's and pulled the chainplates. Given that I live in Seattle, and our weather is in the mid 40's during day and low 30's at night, with a constant battle of rain, i needed something to seal up the chainplate holes(through deck plates).

I created a larger gasket on the plating that slides over the chainplate and screws into the deck, then put a bead around the screws and screwed the plate in place. An hour later i went back and screwed them down a bit more to tighten them up a bit. Butyl tape oozed out of the center where the plates fit.

It's been the seal on these for the last 4 days(we've been getting constant rain since sunday) and the spots are COMPLETELY dry. I've pulled them once to check to see if there is any sort of leak going to the deck, but i am not seeing anything.

The butyl tape so far is an amazing product, and is the first time that I've used it. I am a silicone guy but I have never owned a boat and never used it on a boat. I only used it for my aquariums and house hold things(sealing bathrooms, kitchens and such).

I would recommend using butyl tape for any deck hardware. I am looking for something to create a dry seal/gasket, not something to be "fastened" down. The fastening part is supposed to be done by the bolts and screws, not by the "dual" purpose sealant/glue. Stick with butyl
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Old 02-01-2016, 13:46   #82
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by chowdan View Post
The bristol 27 that i bought is under going repairs currently.

We are replacing chainplates, rebedding ALL deck hardware with butyl tape.

Cleats, railing poles, winchs all are leaking onboard currently and were sealed with something that did not last or hold up over time thats for sure.

The sealant on the chainplates was sort of reddish looking, had no adhesion what so ever and cracked like no other. Its no wonder why everything is leaking. I'm not sure if this was a 3M 4000/4200/5200 sealant, but what ever it is, it is not holding up and is NOT worth ones money.

I am going through everything, counter sinking all the holes then rebedding with butyl tape.

I purchased 100ft of tape from Compass marine, but that was a $40 bill. The tape listed on BestMaterials that someone listed before looks exactly like the tape that I have.

Its grey with the brown wax paper + the hard cardboard center. I'm curious to know if this is the same stuff as the Bed-It tape. It's an ass ton cheaper too!

Back to the point i was originally trying to say, I disconnected the two lower fore stay's and pulled the chainplates. Given that I live in Seattle, and our weather is in the mid 40's during day and low 30's at night, with a constant battle of rain, i needed something to seal up the chainplate holes(through deck plates).

I created a larger gasket on the plating that slides over the chainplate and screws into the deck, then put a bead around the screws and screwed the plate in place. An hour later i went back and screwed them down a bit more to tighten them up a bit. Butyl tape oozed out of the center where the plates fit.

It's been the seal on these for the last 4 days(we've been getting constant rain since sunday) and the spots are COMPLETELY dry. I've pulled them once to check to see if there is any sort of leak going to the deck, but i am not seeing anything.

The butyl tape so far is an amazing product, and is the first time that I've used it. I am a silicone guy but I have never owned a boat and never used it on a boat. I only used it for my aquariums and house hold things(sealing bathrooms, kitchens and such).

I would recommend using butyl tape for any deck hardware. I am looking for something to create a dry seal/gasket, not something to be "fastened" down. The fastening part is supposed to be done by the bolts and screws, not by the "dual" purpose sealant/glue. Stick with butyl
Hmmm, do you have deck fitting bedding experience with 3M5200?

Why do you feel it is not important for your bedding compound to stick tenaciously to the surfaces sealed?

If the bedding compound loses adhesion with one or both surfaces sealed, is that not likely to create a leak?
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Old 02-01-2016, 14:51   #83
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by Bill_E View Post
<snip>

Here is a link to a pretty good discussion of the different kinds of marine sealants. I agree with almost all of Dan's comments. Adrift at Sea » Marine Sealants in a Nutshell

Bill
excellent page, this is pretty much what I did last year when rebidding the winches. Next up is the rest of the deck hardware.


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Old 02-01-2016, 14:53   #84
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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True, diesel or any oils will degrade any other petroleum products over time.
You could put an absorbent towel around the fill hole.
Or you could put a rubber o-ring around the butyl


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Old 02-01-2016, 18:58   #85
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Hmmm, do you have deck fitting bedding experience with 3M5200?

Why do you feel it is not important for your bedding compound to stick tenaciously to the surfaces sealed?

If the bedding compound loses adhesion with one or both surfaces sealed, is that not likely to create a leak?


Butyl is sticky. However, I would respectfully disagree that you need to have a super adhesive sealant, particularly in light of the difficulty removing it in the future.

In many, if not most, applications, the deck fitting is mechanically fastened to the deck. There is no need for a great bonding strength. The sealant merely fills any gaps between the mounting surfaces.

In very few cases are you depending on the adhesive strength of the sealant for structural strength. Bonded frame-less ports being an example. Deck to hull joint, in modern boats, being another example.

My current favorites are 4000/4200 from 3M, and Sikaflex 291. Plenty of adhesive strength and excellent flexibility.
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Old 02-01-2016, 21:44   #86
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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Hmmm, do you have deck fitting bedding experience with 3M5200?

Why do you feel it is not important for your bedding compound to stick tenaciously to the surfaces sealed?

If the bedding compound loses adhesion with one or both surfaces sealed, is that not likely to create a leak?

I have no experience applyinh 5200. The experience I have is pulling it off my deck which is a giant pain in the ****ing ass.

As an example, the stanchion base of our rails had 5200, and they have been leaking constantly. Not only so I have to deal with gel coat cracking(holes lack beveled edges) but I'm also dealing with the gel coat peeling due to the adhesion.

All of our fittings are bolted through, with backing plates. I do NOT want to rely on an adhesive for seal and hold a piece down. That's what the backing plates are for.

The purpose of butyl tape is to create a gasket like seal, not an adhesive seal. I have yet to have the butyl tape leak but all deck hardware that have been sealed with something like 3M/Lifecaulk always leaks. Maybe it was the way the previous owner did it or age of it, but it always leaks and is a giant pain in the ass
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Old 03-01-2016, 03:25   #87
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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I have no experience applyinh 5200. The experience I have is pulling it off my deck which is a giant pain in the ****ing ass.

As an example, the stanchion base of our rails had 5200, and they have been leaking constantly. Not only so I have to deal with gel coat cracking(holes lack beveled edges) but I'm also dealing with the gel coat peeling due to the adhesion.

All of our fittings are bolted through, with backing plates. I do NOT want to rely on an adhesive for seal and hold a piece down. That's what the backing plates are for.

The purpose of butyl tape is to create a gasket like seal, not an adhesive seal. I have yet to have the butyl tape leak but all deck hardware that have been sealed with something like 3M/Lifecaulk always leaks. Maybe it was the way the previous owner did it or age of it, but it always leaks and is a giant pain in the ass
If mounting holes of prior bedding jobs have not had countersunk holes, you cannot blame the bedding compound, blame the installer.

Metal parts bedded with 5200 are easy to remove, if you just heat the part up a little. Heat gun works well.

A backing plate prevents deck fracture from tensile or torsional forces and has pretty much nothing to do with sealing.

The strong adhesion of 5200 to the part and to the deck, assures the gasket remains sealed to the part and deck. (This is the major failure mode of silicone sealant.)

Butyl has some adhesive properties, but limited, and nothing like 5200.

If a part like a hull/deck seam, stanchion base, rope clutch, organizer, cheek block, etc. is bedded "properly" with 5200, there should never be reason to have to remove it, as the 5200 will never fail for the life of the vessel. 4000UV, 4200, sil agley, life caulk are not anywhere in the same league. In my experience they will fail in a few short years.

I have never encountered a part, properly secured and bedded with 5200, that has ever leaked within 20 years. I have encountered lots of parts, secured and bedded improperly, that have leaked within 2 years, including butyl.

I will admit that Butyl done properly, makes a pretty good gasket, as long as it is held under compression, the material doesn't work out, and one doesn't mind the dirty edges.

I just find 5200 to be superior for most apps.

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Old 03-01-2016, 10:40   #88
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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If mounting holes of prior bedding jobs have not had countersunk holes, you cannot blame the bedding compound, blame the installer.

Metal parts bedded with 5200 are easy to remove, if you just heat the part up a little. Heat gun works well.

A backing plate prevents deck fracture from tensile or torsional forces and has pretty much nothing to do with sealing.

The strong adhesion of 5200 to the part and to the deck, assures the gasket remains sealed to the part and deck. (This is the major failure mode of silicone sealant.)

Butyl has some adhesive properties, but limited, and nothing like 5200.

If a part like a hull/deck seam, stanchion base, rope clutch, organizer, cheek block, etc. is bedded "properly" with 5200, there should never be reason to have to remove it, as the 5200 will never fail for the life of the vessel. 4000UV, 4200, sil agley, life caulk are not anywhere in the same league. In my experience they will fail in a few short years.

I have never encountered a part, properly secured and bedded with 5200, that has ever leaked within 20 years. I have encountered lots of parts, secured and bedded improperly, that have leaked within 2 years, including butyl.

I will admit that Butyl done properly, makes a pretty good gasket, as long as it is held under compression, the material doesn't work out, and one doesn't mind the dirty edges.

I just find 5200 to be superior for most apps.
I believe this is one of the subjects that will always be discussed, but never agreed upon in a 100% satisfactory state.

I do agree that regardless if your bedding, counter sink holes are required, and lack of countersinking means the installer did fail at their job.

When installing with something like 5200, the question is why do we need a large amount of adhesion for things? The backing plate does prevent fractures from tensile/torsional forces, but its also distributing the load of the bolts that are cranked down during the tightening process. The backing plates allow the bolts to be tightened to secure the hardware, not the sealant.

The true purpose of the sealant is to seal the hardware by creating a flexible gasket. 5200 does have great flexibility, but butyl also has great flexibility and the ability to reseal itself in the event of breaking a seal. In my view, its far more "stretchy" than 5200, and in these cases where flexibility is king, butyl will win every time.

A great example of something that buytl tape can do:




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Old 03-01-2016, 19:29   #89
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

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as the 5200 will never fail for the life of the vessel.
Testing shows that 5200 looses measurable elasticity (eg it becomes more brittle) by it's 10th year. 3m will confirm that if you ask.
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Old 03-01-2016, 19:53   #90
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Re: Use of butyl tape to bed hardware to deck

One would hope to never have to repair things twice but **** always happens. On my present boat someone loved 5200 and I've spent more time than I care to think about removing it for all kinds of repairs.

But...to stay close to the topic; this is primarily about bedding deck hardware. I avoid 5200 (except for below the water thruhulls) because I just don't ever want to have to scrape the stuff off of the gelcoat.

I'll repost my prior link to an excellent discussion of sealing vs adhering for boats Adrift at Sea » Marine Sealants in a Nutshell I don't want to repeat all of the arguments here and I surely would have to give Dan a lot of credit for a great discussion.

Lastly someone mentioned $40 for butyl tape from MaineSail. Maybe that's a little high but it goes a long way. And I reckon the price is just something that's worth paying to be able to read all of his excellent descriptions. And, if you are going to use butyl tape...you'd do well to read his explanations of how to use it effectively.

But I agree, it's kind of like threads about anchors and guns...we all have preferences.

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