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Old 03-02-2011, 08:34   #166
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And I really would like to know what effect it has on none adhering species of marine life...
ie would a few pulsating boats drive the fish from an area because of the noise... does it kill the offending species or just discourage them from settling...
I'm a 'Greenie'.. convince me this will benefit the environment as much as your friends and your pockets.. maybe I'd be interested.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:43   #167
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And I really would like to know what effect it has on none adhering species of marine life..... convince me this will benefit the environment as much as your friends and your pockets.. maybe I'd be interested.
Good point - if it keeps our boats clean but causes birth defects or delamination or bad breath, we're gonna want to know the unintended consequences.

John
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:46   #168
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Originally Posted by Bagwain View Post
...
Some would not believe that we have over unity devices!!!! YES
But that is another story ...
Great news!
I’ve always thought that the (1St & 2Nd) Laws of Thermodynamics should be repealed as overly restrictive of my individual freedoms. The authority of the law of conservation of energy rests on the results of observations to date, and obviously, it does not necessarily follow that all future observations must agree. So, I'll keep an open mind, pending your evidence.

However, it seems that a lot of people fail to distinguish between an open mind, and an empty head.

Open mindedness doesn't consist of believing in things, or accepting ideas, because someone has described a thing or presented an idea. Some things don't exist, and some ideas are just plain wrong. Open mindedness simply consists of a willingness to change your mind, in the presence of reasonably convincing evidence, that you are wrong.

The number of different possible designs, for Over-Unity (Perpetual Motion) or Ultra-Sonic Antifouling devices, is limited only by the number of possible errors in reasoning.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:54   #169
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However, it seems that a lot of people fail to distinguish between an open mind, and an empty head.
I like it!!! I plan to flagrantly plagiarize that line in the future!

The folks who claim to have built an over-unity device always defend their nonsense by saying "we don't know everything!" My usual response is, "just because we don't know everything, that doesn't mean that we don't know ANYTHING!"

I also have to point out to Bagwain that if you are trying to prove that your ultrasonic anti-fouling works, is legitimate, and can be supported by real scientific evidence, then telling people in the same breath that you believe in perpetual motion machines is probably not a good idea.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:16   #170
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Isn't some boat "1500 klms" away that I not have anything to with blind???
Isn't some Commercial Ferry with 2 hulls a blind experiment?????????

Anyway it is selling now and I ain't loosing any sleep!!!!
I if you wish to do a proper experiment with blind controls you could, for instance, have one hull with your device, one with bottom paint and one bare, seperated enough that they aren't affecting each other but under the same conditions and do the set of experiments in two locations. Actual measurements should be taken (and recorded).

Your response and its poor signal to noise ratio leaves me with the impression that you are selling snake oil if anything.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:58   #171
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The number of different possible designs is limited only by the number of possible errors in reasoning.
GordMay --

You are my hero. Please stop in for a pint and some rambling thoughts.

John
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:34   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Great news!
I’ve always thought that the (1St & 2Nd) Laws of Thermodynamics should be repealed as overly restrictive of my individual freedoms. The authority of the law of conservation of energy rests on the results of observations to date, and obviously, it does not necessarily follow that all future observations must agree. So, I'll keep an open mind, pending your evidence.

However, it seems that a lot of people fail to distinguish between an open mind, and an empty head.

Open mindedness doesn't consist of believing in things, or accepting ideas, because someone has described a thing or presented an idea. Some things don't exist, and some ideas are just plain wrong. Open mindedness simply consists of a willingness to change your mind, in the presence of reasonably convincing evidence, that you are wrong.

The number of different possible designs, for Over-Unity (Perpetual Motion) or Ultra-Sonic Antifouling devices, is limited only by the number of possible errors in reasoning.
Yeah....that's what I was going to say
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:52   #173
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I would like to discuss a subject that I am sure most individuals simply
take as a fact of our daily existence: losing things!

An example: on more than one occasion while working on the car, I would
drop something--a nut or bolt--and look for it in every location it
could possibly have landed, only to discover that it was just not there.
What would add to the frustration of the whole experience was that once
I had surrendered to the futility of the search, there the object would
be...in plain sight.

My mother used to say when something had strangely disappeared that it
had fallen into a void. Later, when the object was recovered, it had
somehow fallen back out of the void. That explanation did not satisfy my
need to understand this mysterious phenomenon. I am happy to announce,
after years of diligent effort, the answer is available.

The turning point in the investigation was the realization that certain
types of materials have a greater chance of being affected by this
phenomenon. (This was discovered only after the disappearance of socks
was found to be caused by an entirely different set of circumstances.)
While this temporary disappearance can happen to any object under the
right conditions, it occurs more often in metal objects subjected to a
great deal of stress in their formation (i.e., nuts, bolts, earrings,
keys, etc.).

What occurs is that when the object falls and strikes the ground, this
causes vibration at the atomic level. In objects with a highly ordered
crystalline structure (metals), it is possible to get all the atoms to
vibrate in unison if the object is below a certain limiting size. So
this usually happens only to small objects; the conditions required for
this to happen to very large items will be discussed later. When the
neutrons vibrate in unison it causes the subatomic gravitons to emit a
type of energy not yet fully understood. The phenomenon has been named
Graviton Oscillation Neutron Emission, or GONE for short. This energy
field actually causes the object to shift in relative time. The degree
of temporal shift is dependent on the amount of energy released It may
shift just a few moments, in which case you may find the object while
conducting your search. On other occasions it may take minutes, hours or
months, or you may never catch up with the item in the stream of time.

For larger objects the energy from the impact is not sufficient to cause
a shift in time. However, sympathetic vibrations due to resonance can
spread throughout the structure, causing the temporal shift to occur
later. This has been observed in mall parking lots where a car door had
been slammed, and after a few minutes have passed the car disappears.
This phenomenon is usually accompanied by a position shift as well, such
that when the automobile reappears, it is in a different parking space
than the one you are quite sure you left it in. In a few instances the
vehicles have been found miles away from the point of disappearance,
somewhat worse for wear from their journey through time and space. And
often missing tires and electronic components, oddly enough.

So, now that this phenomenon is understood, it should relieve us all of
unnecessary anxiety. When you can't find your keys or your car, just
wait--it's only GONE temporarily. It will pop up when it falls out of
the void.
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Old 03-02-2011, 13:31   #174
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Ultrasonic antifouling is in its early days. I agree with the general theme of these posts that if we were supplied with double blind tests of its effectiveness we would be much more inclined to spend our hard earned money, but many of the companies supplying these products are obviously small.
Antidotal evidence is promising.
Scientifically controlled tests are expensive and it should be remembered that few boating products have been subject to such tests.

Does AIS enhance safety, I believe so.
Can I justify this statement with any controlled tests? No.

Lets maintain a healthy skepticism. If ultrasonic antifouling can extend the life of existing antifouling paint even marginally (which is well below its makers claims) it may be a worthwhile option especially in view of increasingly tight environmental laws which may eliminate many of the products which we take for granted today.
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Old 03-02-2011, 14:20   #175
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Ultrosonic article

Sail magazine, Feb 2011 pg 86.

The Ultrosonic Alternative by Charles J. Doane.

He used the Ultra 20 (two transducers), from Ultrasonic Antifouling, Ltd. ultrasonic-anitfouling.com

Seems he tried it for 2 months in Maine and was impressed with the results...

He did state he put a new coat of bottom paint on when installing it, that it was high season for growth at his anchorage, and the boat actually did not sail much during the two months so he would have expected to see some growth...

BUT cost for the Ultra 20 is $2369 USD ((1,263 GBP) and the Ultra 10 is $1263 USD (800 GBP).

That is a lot of bottom paint!

I think I'll wait this one out for a few years!

Marshall
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Old 03-02-2011, 14:43   #176
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Warning needed

Gord,

You really have to start prefacing these posts with a beverage alert. If I had been drinking a cup of coffee while reading this thread I would be in the market for a new keyboard.
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Old 03-02-2011, 14:54   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SearenitySail View Post
Sail magazine, Feb 2011 pg 86.

The Ultrosonic Alternative by Charles J. Doane.
That's the one I was talking about. Yes, a bit pricey, but... if you consider that you have to haul the boat for bottom paint...

For instance, you go to the Carribean. The plan is to spend 7 months there, mostly on the hook, with a little island hopping. How bad is the bottom of the boat going to get? So, if you haul it, block it, spend a week sanding & painting, & launch it, how does that cost compare with an ultrasonic system (assuming it works)? Or, you could dive the boat every few weeks & scrub the bottom, or maybe careen her on a nice sandy shore (which you'd have to do twice).

I'm just thinking that if you calculate this as if you had to pay yourself for the labour involved (after all, we have a finite time to live), is it still cheaper?
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Old 03-02-2011, 15:02   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
I would like to discuss a subject that I am sure most individuals simply
take as a fact of our daily existence: losing things!

An example: on more than one occasion while working on the car, I would
drop something--a nut or bolt--and look for it in every location it
could possibly have landed, only to discover that it was just not there.
What would add to the frustration of the whole experience was that once
I had surrendered to the futility of the search, there the object would
be...in plain sight.

My mother used to say when something had strangely disappeared that it
had fallen into a void. Later, when the object was recovered, it had
somehow fallen back out of the void. That explanation did not satisfy my
need to understand this mysterious phenomenon. I am happy to announce,
after years of diligent effort, the answer is available.

The turning point in the investigation was the realization that certain
types of materials have a greater chance of being affected by this
phenomenon. (This was discovered only after the disappearance of socks
was found to be caused by an entirely different set of circumstances.)
While this temporary disappearance can happen to any object under the
right conditions, it occurs more often in metal objects subjected to a
great deal of stress in their formation (i.e., nuts, bolts, earrings,
keys, etc.).

What occurs is that when the object falls and strikes the ground, this
causes vibration at the atomic level. In objects with a highly ordered
crystalline structure (metals), it is possible to get all the atoms to
vibrate in unison if the object is below a certain limiting size. So
this usually happens only to small objects; the conditions required for
this to happen to very large items will be discussed later. When the
neutrons vibrate in unison it causes the subatomic gravitons to emit a
type of energy not yet fully understood. The phenomenon has been named
Graviton Oscillation Neutron Emission, or GONE for short. This energy
field actually causes the object to shift in relative time. The degree
of temporal shift is dependent on the amount of energy released It may
shift just a few moments, in which case you may find the object while
conducting your search. On other occasions it may take minutes, hours or
months, or you may never catch up with the item in the stream of time.

For larger objects the energy from the impact is not sufficient to cause
a shift in time. However, sympathetic vibrations due to resonance can
spread throughout the structure, causing the temporal shift to occur
later. This has been observed in mall parking lots where a car door had
been slammed, and after a few minutes have passed the car disappears.
This phenomenon is usually accompanied by a position shift as well, such
that when the automobile reappears, it is in a different parking space
than the one you are quite sure you left it in. In a few instances the
vehicles have been found miles away from the point of disappearance,
somewhat worse for wear from their journey through time and space. And
often missing tires and electronic components, oddly enough.

So, now that this phenomenon is understood, it should relieve us all of
unnecessary anxiety. When you can't find your keys or your car, just
wait--it's only GONE temporarily. It will pop up when it falls out of
the void.

Thanks Gord.

Now all we have to do is find the right amount of small objects to drop in the bilge (bilges to me ) so that while resonating they will keep bottom growth away.
Easy to do because when they re-appear we simply repeat the process.
We all check our bilges regularly right?
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Old 03-02-2011, 15:08   #179
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Personally I hope someone gets this right so I can have a system.......err.........two.
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Old 03-02-2011, 15:50   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
I would like to discuss a subject that I am sure most individuals simply
take as a fact of our daily existence: losing things!

An example: on more than one occasion while working on the car, I would
drop something--a nut or bolt--and look for it in every location it
could possibly have landed, only to discover that it was just not there.
What would add to the frustration of the whole experience was that once
I had surrendered to the futility of the search, there the object would
be...in plain sight.

My mother used to say when something had strangely disappeared that it
had fallen into a void. Later, when the object was recovered, it had
somehow fallen back out of the void. That explanation did not satisfy my
need to understand this mysterious phenomenon. I am happy to announce,
after years of diligent effort, the answer is available.

The turning point in the investigation was the realization that certain
types of materials have a greater chance of being affected by this
phenomenon. (This was discovered only after the disappearance of socks
was found to be caused by an entirely different set of circumstances.)
While this temporary disappearance can happen to any object under the
right conditions, it occurs more often in metal objects subjected to a
great deal of stress in their formation (i.e., nuts, bolts, earrings,
keys, etc.).

What occurs is that when the object falls and strikes the ground, this
causes vibration at the atomic level. In objects with a highly ordered
crystalline structure (metals), it is possible to get all the atoms to
vibrate in unison if the object is below a certain limiting size. So
this usually happens only to small objects; the conditions required for
this to happen to very large items will be discussed later. When the
neutrons vibrate in unison it causes the subatomic gravitons to emit a
type of energy not yet fully understood. The phenomenon has been named
Graviton Oscillation Neutron Emission, or GONE for short. This energy
field actually causes the object to shift in relative time. The degree
of temporal shift is dependent on the amount of energy released It may
shift just a few moments, in which case you may find the object while
conducting your search. On other occasions it may take minutes, hours or
months, or you may never catch up with the item in the stream of time.

For larger objects the energy from the impact is not sufficient to cause
a shift in time. However, sympathetic vibrations due to resonance can
spread throughout the structure, causing the temporal shift to occur
later. This has been observed in mall parking lots where a car door had
been slammed, and after a few minutes have passed the car disappears.
This phenomenon is usually accompanied by a position shift as well, such
that when the automobile reappears, it is in a different parking space
than the one you are quite sure you left it in. In a few instances the
vehicles have been found miles away from the point of disappearance,
somewhat worse for wear from their journey through time and space. And
often missing tires and electronic components, oddly enough.

So, now that this phenomenon is understood, it should relieve us all of
unnecessary anxiety. When you can't find your keys or your car, just
wait--it's only GONE temporarily. It will pop up when it falls out of
the void.
So simple, properly explained.

I've done several technical reviews, including lab and field testing, of fuel additives. Let us just say that for many, the advertising is impressive. For a depressingly small subset, the results are measurable.

You eloquence today has been a beacon.
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