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Old 05-08-2012, 10:47   #16
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
You can get a decent enough job if you are more interested in using your boat instead of having some shiny toy to impress your mates.

Not interested in the high end paintjob.
Cant stand boats where the owners are always worrying about their topsides getting some mark on it, no place in the real world IMHO

The anchor chain doesnt care about the type of finish you have as it scrapes across your bows unavoidably one day
Your hard dinghy cares little about it as you bang up and down on the transom in a swell while trying to board
The guy in his dugout has no respect for it as he bangs into your topsides.
The squid you caught have no respect for it as it hoses black ink over it
The tuna you caught have no respect as the piss blood everywhere.
The customs guys have no respect for it as the stomp over your boat in black kicker boots
The boats you are racing against have no respect for it as they kiss you on a rounding mark.

More than happy with the 80% finish and very slight orange peel.
Fools 99% of the people out there
And from my time building and fairing 100ft gin palaces in the 80's, that last 20% which makes up the perfect finish often takes more time to get at considerable expense than the 80% which you would have been happy enough with, especially when you are out there on the boat using it.

People who are on their boats using them boats don't actually see the outside paint job that often

I don't see the benefit. You can sand out a well sprayed primer coat with 400 almost as fast as with 180, after all most of it will be machine sanded. Just takes a little bit longer to hand sand the edges and corners, and gives a MUCH nicer finish. It's not like you're saving yourself a ton of work or anything. That's just lazy.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:24   #17
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

Another possibility is that the coat where you have a weak bond is that there was too long of a time period between coats. Some paints have a maximum time period between coats where you no longer get a good chemical bond because the paint has had too much time to cure. LPU's are this way and so are epoxy barrier coats. What you are left with if you wait too long between coats is having to rough up the surface in order to maximize the chances of getting a good physical bond.

My best guess is that someone didn't spray between Friday and Monday.
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Old 05-08-2012, 16:14   #18
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
I don't see the benefit. You can sand out a well sprayed primer coat with 400 almost as fast as with 180, after all most of it will be machine sanded. Just takes a little bit longer to hand sand the edges and corners, and gives a MUCH nicer finish.
Its the additional detail required to get you to the stage where you know that it'll be good with 400 and the awlgrip topcoat that's the issue.
Like I said, I have been involved in fairing luxury megayachts before where we have had an "army of men" chasing the slightest imperfections and pinholes for months, all at a cost and at the end of the day none of it made a jot of difference to how the boat worked and 6 mths later the paintbox had scuffmarks and scratches anyway.

And also remember that the first couple of coats pretty much fill any of those 180grit scratches you think may show through and the next coats give the finish.

Look at a good quality workboat finish as an example, the sort of boat that takes paying customers out to the expensive resort.
Looks fine from 10 feet away, fools the majority, yet may have some ripples, if you look closely there may be some pinholes or sections not perfectly faired.

Does it make it work any better?
Do most people even notice these things

I can guarantee you that the paint-job and fairing cost a fraction of the cost of the dock queen

Quote:
It's not like you're saving yourself a ton of work or anything. That's just lazy.
Easy to say if you are on a team or when your not paying for it yourself or when you're actually getting paid.

Anyway, the op doesn't want his paint falling off and this is what its about.
He was told that finer grit papers were an issue for adhesion and my paint rep has confirmed this as well.
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Old 05-08-2012, 16:46   #19
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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Originally Posted by brankin View Post
Cat man do has stated that he could care less for a "Yacht Quality Finish" so his input into a quality debate should be simply ignored.
Yacht quality finish, Pfft

Paintjob here is several years old

as is this

As is this

and again

and again


and I can keep going on and on.

All these boats and hundreds more like them have been done in the same fashion, similar topcoat and similar grit paper as described.

Are you trying to suggest all these yachts cant possibly have a "yacht quality finish" simply because they didnt have minaret do them?

If you are already starting with the perfectly faired boat , sure, its easy to hose on some primer and you know you will have a quality result straight up sanding back with 400, after all, what was underneath was already spot on and more than likely moulded.
But if starting from nothing, like all these boats were, my comment still stands.
That last 20% of finish will cost a motza and your painter and fairing crew will thank you for the extra coin spent.
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Old 05-08-2012, 17:56   #20
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
Its the additional detail required to get you to the stage where you know that it'll be good with 400 and the awlgrip topcoat that's the issue.

What additional detail? As I just said, sanding out to 400 takes very little more time than sanding 180. You are saving a few hours at the cost of a quality finish. Foolish.

Like I said, I have been involved in fairing luxury megayachts before where we have had an "army of men" chasing the slightest imperfections and pinholes for months, all at a cost and at the end of the day none of it made a jot of difference to how the boat worked and 6 mths later the paintbox had scuffmarks and scratches anyway.

In the '80's? Things sure have changed a lot since then...

And also remember that the first couple of coats pretty much fill any of those 180grit scratches you think may show through and the next coats give the finish.

No, they don't. As the manufacterer's guide I just quoted states, and as both of the pro painter's who have responded so far said. You can claim it doesn't, but the manufacterer clearly agrees with me. Perhaps you have a vision problem or something? Also you are not supposed to apply more than three wet coats of LPU, so where are these extra coats coming from?

Look at a good quality workboat finish as an example, the sort of boat that takes paying customers out to the expensive resort.
Looks fine from 10 feet away, fools the majority, yet may have some ripples, if you look closely there may be some pinholes or sections not perfectly faired.

I doubt most people spending the bucks for an LPU job are looking for a "workboat finish".

Does it make it work any better?
Do most people even notice these things

Many people do indeed notice these things; apparently you are not one of them.

I can guarantee you that the paint-job and fairing cost a fraction of the cost of the dock queen

?


Easy to say if you are on a team or when your not paying for it yourself or when you're actually getting paid.

Once again, huh? We don't advertise, all our work comes from word of mouth. All our paint sheds have been booked a year in advance for years now, because we do quality work for less. We are not padding our hours, this is what keeps us alive when others are closing their doors.

Anyway, the op doesn't want his paint falling off and this is what its about.
He was told that finer grit papers were an issue for adhesion and my paint rep has confirmed this as well.
What kind of paint? Who was the rep? Was it a high-VOC LPU as the OP is discussing? I seriously doubt it...
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Old 05-08-2012, 18:00   #21
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
Yacht quality finish, Pfft

Paintjob here is several years old

as is this

As is this

and again

and again


and I can keep going on and on.

Some of these pictures are ancient! And none are close enough to tell us anything whatsoever about the quality of the finish. Completely meaningless.

All these boats and hundreds more like them have been done in the same fashion, similar topcoat and similar grit paper as described.

Are you trying to suggest all these yachts cant possibly have a "yacht quality finish" simply because they didnt have minaret do them?

If you are already starting with the perfectly faired boat , sure, its easy to hose on some primer and you know you will have a quality result straight up sanding back with 400, after all, what was underneath was already spot on and more than likely moulded.

"More than likely moulded" describes more than 90% of the boats on the market, outside of commercial boats.

But if starting from nothing, like all these boats were, my comment still stands.
That last 20% of finish will cost a motza and your painter and fairing crew will thank you for the extra coin spent.
Sounds like you are saying your comments about painting only apply to "one-off" builds. Since this is a tiny fraction of the boat market as a whole, I don't see the relevance for most people. Sure, if you are starting off with an unfair surface then making it fair is a huge job. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with painting. We are discussing sanding post-primer here, obviously we can assume a fair surface at this point. I think you are stuck in your own little boating world, all one-off multi-hulls built in Australia. I hate to tell you but that is less than one percent of the boat market.
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Old 05-08-2012, 18:07   #22
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

I do pro museum quality paint finishes myself. I do LPU blends on repairs on very high end yachts all the time. When blending LPU we prep sand for topcoat with 1000 grit, because anything less will cause you to blow through when blending because the paint is so thin. I have never ever done any warranty work whatsoever on a blend, and our warranty is ten years. If LPU sticks that well to very thoroughly wet-sanded topcoat at 1000 grit, why would it have a problem with 400? The answer is it doesn't. Anyone who tells you anything else is full of it. My blends come out perfect, no halo, will pass destructive adhesion tests. This talk about LPU not sticking to anything finer than 180 is pure BS.
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Old 05-08-2012, 18:19   #23
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
This talk about LPU not sticking to anything finer than 180 is pure BS.
Never said it
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Old 05-08-2012, 18:19   #24
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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Never said it

NOW he changes his tune! So how fine IS OK with you?
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Old 05-08-2012, 18:25   #25
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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Some of these pictures are ancient! And none are close enough to tell us anything whatsoever about the quality of the finish. Completely meaningless.
I could if I was so inclined provide up to date images but the fact still remains, that these are yachts with a satisfactory and serviceable finish done for considerably less dollars than your "museum" quality finish.

My point is that not everyone wants or needs a "museum" quality finish or the expense that goes with it as it does not make the boat perform any better and while it does look nicer, the reality of it is for people who actually use their boats, that finish will be getting damaged sooner rather than later anyway.
Sort of makes it all a bit pointless IMHO and yes, this is my opinion as someone who is not pushing high end finishes.
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Old 05-08-2012, 18:27   #26
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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NOW he changes his tune! So how fine IS OK with you?
As fine as is required to get a satisfactory and serviceable finish without the paint falling off.
For me and for many others that's somewhere in the 180 to 220 range.

Bear in mind that where I am and where the boatbuilding precinct in Brisbane is, there is high fallout from other factories and a dedicated shed will cost you thousands of dollars a week PLUS a team and their wages.

The rest of us get to spray in the open in less than favourable conditions
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Old 05-08-2012, 18:38   #27
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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I could if I was so inclined provide up to date images but the fact still remains, that these are yachts with a satisfactory and serviceable finish done for considerably less dollars than your "museum" quality finish.

Since you won't post pictures we have only your word that these are boats with "satisfactory" finishes. And you have no idea what it costs to paint a boat in our yard. And boats which have not been professionally painted can hardly be compared expense wise to boats that have, obviously you will save a lot of money if you do the job yourself. What if you paid yourself your usual wage for hours spent painting? How much would it cost then?

My point is that not everyone wants or needs a "museum" quality finish or the expense that goes with it as it does not make the boat perform any better and while it does look nicer, the reality of it is for people who actually use their boats, that finish will be getting damaged sooner rather than later anyway.

My point is that there is very little "added expense" to having a quality finish as opposed to a hack job. The difference is a few hours more labor and a little extra sand paper. Oh, and a lot of experience.

Sort of makes it all a bit pointless IMHO and yes, this is my opinion as someone who is not pushing high end finishes.
I see that you do indeed think a quality finish is pointless. So why do you keep posting on threads where people are looking for advice on how to obtain a quality finish? Some of these people might think you actually care or know what you are talking about, and it could cost them...
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Old 05-08-2012, 18:44   #28
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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As fine as is required to get a satisfactory and serviceable finish without the paint falling off.
For me and for many others that's somewhere in the 180 to 220 range.

So you are claiming that you personally have had an LPU topcoat fail due to sanding finer than 220 grit?

Bear in mind that where I am and where the boatbuilding precinct in Brisbane is, there is high fallout from other factories and a dedicated shed will cost you thousands of dollars a week PLUS a team and their wages.

You can't just build a temporary shed over the boat and tent it off? We shoot boats in yards other than ours all the time, and when we do we assemble a quick building over it so we can get a good finish. We use filtered fan intakes and outtakes to filter out overspray and dust. We use both steel pipe buildings and build wood ones of our own. Average cost of materials for a wood one is a few hundred bucks and one or two man-days of labor. The steel pipe shed takes even less time to set up and break down.

The rest of us get to spray in the open in less than favourable conditions
Only if you are too cheap or lazy to cover the boat so the new paint job doesn't get loaded with dust while you are overspraying your neighbors and harming the environment. More proof you just don't care...
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Old 05-08-2012, 19:04   #29
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

Oh boy, a flame war! There are lots of ways to do things well. Let Minaret feel good that he has the inside scoop on perfection, while we are off sailing and doing the myriad other pursuits that having a boat demands. The rest of us will be happy, our customers will be happy, and Minaret can be happy. Let's move on, I think the issue has been sufficiently addressed for our readers to make up their minds.
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Old 05-08-2012, 19:04   #30
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Re: Topside Paint Coming Off In Sheets

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I see that you do indeed think a quality finish is pointless.
Yawn

I prefer to compare it to the paintjob on your bog standard ford family car Vs the paintjob on a Maybach
I aim for the former
You clearly aim at the later.

For the vast majority of people the bog standard ford finish will more than suffice.

Does posting in red somehow make your point more valid or is that supposed to be representative of the red haze of anger coming down over your eyes
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