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Old 16-10-2016, 04:30   #1
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Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

My huge recore job is coming along and I've started laminating the deck. I'm new to fiberglass and I'm experimenting and trying to get the techniques right.

The first layer of 600 GSM biax that went on top of the Airex foam was well saturated I believe. Going forward I tried to minimize the resin use as I've hear too much resin is not ideal, but too little resin is even worse right?

On the second layer I pretty much squeegeed out any resin I could while the glass still appeared to be saturated.

I started to doubt my methods and weighed the glass and epoxy for next area going 50:50. I realized then that I had probably been down to say 30-35% resin on the second layer on the whole port companionway.

How worried should I be that this will delaminate? I still have two layers of 600 biax that will go on top which will get the right ratio.
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Old 16-10-2016, 04:44   #2
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

It takes what it takes. Don't fret too much about getting an exact "ultimate" ratio.

Mix your epoxy, coat the foam, then wet out the glass.

Think of it like this. Too much resin will add weight. Maybe 20 kilos over the entire job? Too little resin means you'll have to redo the whole thing when it delaminates.

When you compare the consequences, it's an easy decision to err on the side of more resin.

Here's a good writeup on the wetting glass: F-44SC Catamaran: the basics

I never skim with micro, as he does, it just adds more work. I wet the foam, lay the glass, then wet the glass. It takes a lot of resin to "float" the glass, so don't worry too much about it. 600gsm wets out very fast, so if you pour your resin onto the glass, do it over a large area, not in a pool in one spot.

I usually pour a long line of resin (either in the centre, or on one side) then use a squeegy in a "plowing motion" to work the resin over the entire surface. Once the entire surface is covered in resin, I then work it into the glass. 600 gsm will be wet-out in less than 2 minutes this way.

It helps to have the resin work it's way from the bottom as well as down from the top.

I can't comment on your previous work with 600gsm at a lower ratio of resin. It's impossible to say without seeing how it looks. Is the glass translucent? Can you see it stuck to the foam? Is the foam easily seen through the glass?

When your finished your panel, run the squeegy hard over the glass, if it turns white, you're too dry, if you create a wave of epoxy under the glass, you're too wet. If you're too wet, squeeze out the extra, and adjust your method for the next panel.

If you're too dry, add a little epoxy.

Cheers, and good luck.
Paul.
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Old 16-10-2016, 04:50   #3
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norado View Post
My huge recore job is coming along and I've started laminating the deck. I'm new to fiberglass and I'm experimenting and trying to get the techniques right.

The first layer of 600 GSM biax that went on top of the Airex foam was well saturated I believe. Going forward I tried to minimize the resin use as I've hear too much resin is not ideal, but too little resin is even worse right?

On the second layer I pretty much squeegeed out any resin I could while the glass still appeared to be saturated.

I started to doubt my methods and weighed the glass and epoxy for next area going 50:50. I realized then that I had probably been down to say 30-35% resin on the second layer on the whole port companionway.

How worried should I be that this will delaminate? I still have two layers of 600 biax that will go on top which will get the right ratio.
If there's no air voids, bubbles or dry areas you are good. You "hear" the air bubbles between the layers with hand stroking gently the cured surface..

BR Teddy
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Old 16-10-2016, 05:18   #4
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

No air bubbles, everything was wet, but I probably created more voids and mat distoy if that makes sense. Think I read that a hand layup yields up to 20% voids even when done correctly at the right ratios, as opposed to vacuum bagging which could bring that down to 1-2%.

I had the yard manager over and he told me not to worry just to up the resin on the next layer..
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Old 16-10-2016, 07:19   #5
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

If there are some bigger voids you detect just grind those places open and fill with epoxy bog with scrabs of gf and be done with it.
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Old 16-10-2016, 09:08   #6
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

May I ask? Why epoxy? Is your boat epoxy?
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Old 16-10-2016, 10:15   #7
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

I would rather not go down that rabbit hole again, but it was mainly for its superior bonding abilities.
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Old 16-10-2016, 10:41   #8
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

I'm no expert, but laid down lots of biax and epoxy...

If it looks ok but resin shy without "dry patches", then it's good... Your yard manager is the confirmation... Carry on...

PS-You're using the right material in my rabbit hole opinion...
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Old 16-10-2016, 11:24   #9
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

Do you laminate woven on woven?

Dry woven can easily delaminate from another dry woven. Faster than mat or mat / woven combos. But when it is a deck layup I doubt you are at risk.

I noticed (woven) cloth / mat / cloth minimizes this challenge. I often laminate towards the 'dry' spectrum in my repairs. In thick parts I interlay mat and woven.

I never had mat on mat delaminate, no matter how dry the layup.

b.
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Old 16-10-2016, 11:31   #10
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Do you laminate woven on woven?

Dry woven can easily delaminate from another dry woven. Faster than mat or mat / woven combos. But when it is a deck layup I doubt you are at risk.

I noticed (woven) cloth / mat / cloth minimizes this challenge. I often laminate towards the 'dry' spectrum in my repairs. In thick parts I interlay mat and woven.

I never had mat on mat delaminate, no matter how dry the layup.

b.
It's biax on biax and it's laminated on a foam core, right material in this purpose..
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Old 16-10-2016, 11:58   #11
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Do you laminate woven on woven?

Dry woven can easily delaminate from another dry woven. Faster than mat or mat / woven combos. But when it is a deck layup I doubt you are at risk.

I noticed (woven) cloth / mat / cloth minimizes this challenge. I often laminate towards the 'dry' spectrum in my repairs. In thick parts I interlay mat and woven.

I never had mat on mat delaminate, no matter how dry the layup.

b.
Good post with true facts b.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
It's biax on biax and it's laminated on a foam core, right material in this purpose..
100% agreed...
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Old 16-10-2016, 12:04   #12
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svquintana View Post
It takes what it takes. Don't fret too much about getting an exact "ultimate" ratio.

Mix your epoxy, coat the foam, then wet out the glass.

Think of it like this. Too much resin will add weight. Maybe 20 kilos over the entire job? Too little resin means you'll have to redo the whole thing when it delaminates.

When you compare the consequences, it's an easy decision to err on the side of more resin.

Here's a good writeup on the wetting glass: F-44SC Catamaran: the basics

I never skim with micro, as he does, it just adds more work. I wet the foam, lay the glass, then wet the glass. It takes a lot of resin to "float" the glass, so don't worry too much about it. 600gsm wets out very fast, so if you pour your resin onto the glass, do it over a large area, not in a pool in one spot.

I usually pour a long line of resin (either in the centre, or on one side) then use a squeegy in a "plowing motion" to work the resin over the entire surface. Once the entire surface is covered in resin, I then work it into the glass. 600 gsm will be wet-out in less than 2 minutes this way.

It helps to have the resin work it's way from the bottom as well as down from the top.

I can't comment on your previous work with 600gsm at a lower ratio of resin. It's impossible to say without seeing how it looks. Is the glass translucent? Can you see it stuck to the foam? Is the foam easily seen through the glass?

When your finished your panel, run the squeegy hard over the glass, if it turns white, you're too dry, if you create a wave of epoxy under the glass, you're too wet. If you're too wet, squeeze out the extra, and adjust your method for the next panel.

If you're too dry, add a little epoxy.

Cheers, and good luck.
Paul.
I undeleted Paul's post with his permission... He thought it was too detailed and didn't exactly answer the question... But he has some very good observations and tips in the last two paragraphs that really might help "tune" your squeegee skills.... I like the way he said it...
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Old 16-10-2016, 12:18   #13
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

Paul, I've pretty much followed your method but kept squeezing out resin until there was little to no wave in front of the squeegy. The goo that came out was white. Glass still translucent with green core visible.

Thanks for the input everyone!
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Old 16-10-2016, 14:13   #14
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

Norado, it seems like you have the system down pat.

As long as your glass is saturated, and isn't lifting from the foam, you can't squeeze too much resin out by hand.

The white goo, on squeeze out, is normal.

Congrats on starting your big project. Good luck.

Paul.
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Old 16-10-2016, 15:32   #15
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Re: Too dry epoxy hand lay up, will it delaminate?

Can I ask why you think that you're down in the 30-35% ratio region? As if the cloth is wetted out from a visual standpoint, it's highly improbable that it's that lean resin wise. Even if you're (vacuum) bagging it. That's really, really lean.

Take some of the cloth & resin that you're using, & do some tests. Measuring the weight of the cloth piece that you use, prior to wetting it out, & then after applying epoxy as you would to it on the boat. Including with a few curves akin to those where you're doing your laminating on the vessel, so that the wet out techniques you're using get replicated in these test samples.

Are you using mat that has binders which are soluble in Styrene, as are generally used with Polyester resin? Or ones formulated for Epoxy?

And might you be using a resin which is too viscous (thick)? As it's tougher to wet out some reinforcements with certain resins, so the cP number matters in some applications.

I wouldn't worry about things being too resin rich in this application. You won't lose any strength. Especially when you consider the mechanical properties of most resins vs. those of the cores.
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