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Old 12-11-2012, 23:48   #1
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To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

I'm hoping someone may have the answer for me.
I have built all new headliners. Originally they were vinyl over ply.
I use retained the same patern but I have used thinner ply 2.4mm vs 3mm and then I have laminated 4mm cedar strip. To laminate the strip I used contact adheasive. The strip is just edge to edge with a rounded edge. (Should have enough play for movement.
Now one thing I'm worried about is how soft the cedar is.
I have thought of coating the ply back and the cedar with epoxy.
I don't know if it will cause the boards to peel up and seperate from the ply?
If not would the epoxy make the cedar more durable than a 2 pac paint?
Or should I just paint with single pac paint?
Opinions appreciated.
Ideally the headliner should be safe from harm but that's not always the case and in the v berth there will be netting to throw things up there so could catch some abuse.
Oh yeah I guess I should have mentioned I plan to paint in high gloss white.
Thoughts?
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Old 13-11-2012, 00:08   #2
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

Cedar strips are generally a dry timber. An acrylic primer, followed by a couple of top coats should be all that is necessary.
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Old 13-11-2012, 03:42   #3
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

cedar is very soft
easily dinged especially corners

this is what I would do

round off the corners a little
then paint with a timber rot treatment epoxy
with a very thin watery consistency
(not adhesive epoxy)
this will soak in & give a fairly hard surface
if you are worried about deformation ????
put some small weights on each end
or corner
tip !!! for best adhesion paint primer
on while epoxy still wet
epoxy - 3+ coats over 10-15 min
30 min - 1hr later prime

much of the advantage of epoxying is
lost. because the timber surface is not
entirely coated

you will however have a fairly hard surface
resistant to damage
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Old 14-11-2012, 15:55   #4
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

For a headliner? Just paint it. I think epoxy is overkill here.

Be careful of those two-part paints, though. Many of them are too hard / too stiff to last long on bare wood; they can crack as the wood flexes, swells/shrinks, or gets dinged.
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Old 14-02-2013, 04:21   #5
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Just an update for anyone interested. My headliner panels are almost done and will be complete in the next 2 days. I should add that I have been doing many other things besides the panels including rewiring insulation etc etc.
I will run down my process.
I have used 2.5 mm ply sealed than laminated reclaimed old growth western red cedar 2.5 mm strip. Which needed prepping before laminating.
Then it was delicately distressed, refinished primed and 2 thinned costs of marine paint. When you look closer you can see the wood grain and imperfections. This makes it look like it was refinished original headliner. I know a lot of work but that's me. I have also reworked the panels to make them easy to remove to get access to the back of any deck fitting etc.
anyway instead of epoxy I have used a waterproofing acoustic insulation costing. Then the panel has a 3mm closed cell foam and Mylar foil insulation.
Anyway here's some pictures. ;-)

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Old 14-02-2013, 04:45   #6
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

I did (well nearly done!) the same job as you - and starting with the same (Vinyl over old thin ply).

My view is that headliner doesn't really need any protective finish - just cosmetic. My basis for that is that most boats I have come accross have various types of uncoated softwood and / or thin ply above the waterline (and in the interior!) in non-structural places and it is only when unexpected water ingress happens over an extended period of time do problems occur.

But I still coated mine back and front! (would not have bothered with the backs if the fronts did not also need work).

The original plan was to recover with vinyl (it had both discoloured and in places drooped away from the board), that plan then got changed to replacing entirely with sheet plastic and finally changed to good old fashioned paint!.....that required a fair bit of effort in the preparation, including filling and sanding (as well as bunging up a few screw / fitting holes for things long gone). A PITA but the panels were simply too good to replace. In addition, I modified the panels (cut 'em in half!) so that 3 panels reaching from port to starboard became six that met in the middle - that mostly so I could get 'em home easier!, plus makes dropping a panel if access later required a lot easier. Helped of course that the edges of the panels are all hidden by varnished wood trim!

After a couple of coats of decent primer a coat or 3 (I forget!) of white paint really came out well (and better than I expected!). Looks like painted wood (which it is!), but in keeping with the overall look of the boat (built in plastic, but in 1970 not 2012!)..........and I reckon good enough (and long lasting enough) for another 40 years, even for 10 years of that will be someone (else!) looking at them and saying "they could do with another coat of paint"!

This thread reminds me that I have to refit the aft cabin headliners!
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Old 15-02-2013, 00:51   #7
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Well done Dave

I totally agree about the protection. This I chose to protect the backs with something that did more than one thing being acoustic and thermal.
Ill load up a few more pictures for anyone contemplating the same thing.
Dave did you use strip too? The strip for me added a lot of labour as it was reclaimed and each piece needed sanding back of old finish then prepping etc. I think I used 300 lengths that were than cut down. In the end there was only a hand full of waste and it took many hours of planning so that I would have enough material.
Anyway a few more pictures....... Who doesn't love pictures eh!

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Old 15-02-2013, 01:24   #8
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

Everdure is a clear 2 pack epoxy wood protector. This is very durable stuff.

On finished exposed wood, you could also use OSMO Hardwax which is a natural, non-toxic protective wax applied with a brush and wiped off. I've even used this on exterior teak doors and it holds up very well as long as it's not directly in the rain. It comes in flat or satin finish.
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Old 15-02-2013, 04:09   #9
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

Nice pics - yer only truly appreciate the work involved in stuff like that once you have done much the same. On a "to do" list (pre-purchase?) the phrase "Replace / fix Headlinings" doesn't sound much. and fundamentally it ain't - just takes lots of time and effort...........and that many hours of planning also rings a bell! (my fault is that too much thinking and not enough doing!).

No strip for me , never thought of it - probably wouldn't have due to the reasons you stated, lots of labour! albeit getting plywood "de-vinyled" and then smooth enough for paint wasn't exactly quick either (a job done now and again over many months - in the warm and dry of home!).....but the result (including imperfections!) are primarily down to the idjut with the paintbrush! Not good enough for a 2012 Beneteau, but IMO in keeping with a 1970 boat (can't actually tell she is GRP from inside anyway - and wood finishes are never gelcoat sharp). I call it character .
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Old 15-02-2013, 05:52   #10
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To right David,

I must say it sounds like I often suffer from the same thing as you. That is sometimes planning and thinking way more than doing. Or how about going on board to do some work and after all the daydreaming and admiring the boat, not near as much work gets done as you would like.
I think I find the boat too relaxing and feels like a warm hug even when it's being miserable to you. I find I work a lot slower on board than I do at my regular work. The boats like a time warp I think. I wonder if its like that for a lot of others?
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Old 15-02-2013, 06:45   #11
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

Quote:
Originally Posted by mischief View Post
To right David,

I must say it sounds like I often suffer from the same thing as you. That is sometimes planning and thinking way more than doing. Or how about going on board to do some work and after all the daydreaming and admiring the boat, not near as much work gets done as you would like.
I think I find the boat too relaxing and feels like a warm hug even when it's being miserable to you. I find I work a lot slower on board than I do at my regular work. The boats like a time warp I think. I wonder if its like that for a lot of others?
I feel the same about my boat
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Old 15-02-2013, 09:51   #12
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

Quote:
Originally Posted by mischief View Post
The boats like a time warp I think. I wonder if its like that for a lot of others?
I suspect we are not alone on discovering that , albeit I might be in a minority for that actually being part of the reason I bought her .

My second big personal failure is starting something else before finishing the last job(s!!!!) off. My excuse is that I get bored easily, especially once all the thinking has been done!
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Old 15-02-2013, 10:11   #13
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I suspect we are not alone on discovering that , albeit I might be in a minority for that actually being part of the reason I bought her .

My second big personal failure is starting something else before finishing the last job(s!!!!) off. My excuse is that I get bored easily, especially once all the thinking has been done!
You have described me to perfection! I wonder if we are all similarly afflicted? I wonder if we all share the same personality type. As in the same or similiar Myers-Briggs types. I know that after discovering my type, I am much more cognoscente of what I have to be on alert for in my project completion attempts.
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Old 15-02-2013, 13:23   #14
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

I think we have enough to form a support group............
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Old 16-02-2013, 04:07   #15
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Re: To Epoxy or not to Epoxy

i was advised by a paint technician not to use epoxy on two different type of woods that have been bonded together, especially if it is a hard wood and a soft wood. the reason is that they expand and contract with heat at different rates, and as the epoxy is hard, it is likely to crack at the edge, and then let in moisture which leads eventually to decay.

he recommended a polyurethane, but i think you could also use a monourethane (easier to touch up), as it is flexible and will move with the woods expanding and contracting.

looks like you are doing a great job. well done.
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