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Old 13-02-2011, 15:29   #31
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ABYC guidlines say not to solder boat cables (wires) with the exception of battery lugs and they give a dimensional requirement. The solder creats a hard spot and the copper wire will work harden at that point. Tinned wire is more resistant to corrosion but either with Tinned or non tinned best practices win out everytime, this includes proper wire sizing, crimping and sealing the captive terminals, I dip each end in dielectric grease then crimp then heat shrink tubbing, followed by drip loops and finally strain connections, and when I connect to the power strip or post I connect either perpendicular or in an upward direction to keep as much moisture from the strip. Ive used both types of wire and using these practices they are still going strong after 5 years.
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Old 13-02-2011, 16:04   #32
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I don't know how long tinned wire has been around, but as I've slowly rewired our 1981 Islander I found old tinned wire. Comparing the old Ancor tinned wire to the new Ancor tinned wire of the same rating, showed an interesting difference between the two. The old wire had fewer wire strands in it, but larger wire strands. The new wire had more wire strands in it, but smaller wire strands. When comparing the diameters of the wires side by side, the old Ancor wire was a larger overall diameter.
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Old 13-02-2011, 16:39   #33
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ABYC guidlines say not to solder boat cables (wires) with the exception of battery lugs and they give a dimensional requirement. The solder creats a hard spot and the copper wire will work harden at that point. Tinned wire is more resistant to corrosion but either with Tinned or non tinned best practices win out everytime, this includes proper wire sizing, crimping and sealing the captive terminals, I dip each end in dielectric grease then crimp then heat shrink tubbing, followed by drip loops and finally strain connections, and when I connect to the power strip or post I connect either perpendicular or in an upward direction to keep as much moisture from the strip. Ive used both types of wire and using these practices they are still going strong after 5 years.

Regarding dipping the ends in dielectric grease (insulating) before crimping, please explain. I have done salt spray chamber tests both ways and found no measurable difference. Neither sort failed. It seems there is always some risk that the grease will compromise the adhesive seal. Some suggest it could compromise the crimp by providing insulation, but I have not seen this in high pressure crimps (it can be an issue in low-pressure electronics contacts). Is there a code or published best-practice that suggested this to you?
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Old 13-02-2011, 16:58   #34
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Originally Posted by JiffyLube View Post
... Comparing the old Ancor tinned wire to the new Ancor tinned wire of the same rating, showed an interesting difference between the two. The old wire had fewer wire strands in it, but larger wire strands. The new wire had more wire strands in it, but smaller wire strands ...
That's the difference between Type 2 (standard) and Type 3 Class K (extra-flexible) stranding.
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Old 13-02-2011, 17:09   #35
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That's the difference between Type 2 (standard) and Type 3 Class K (extra-flexible) stranding.
So is the Type 3 the one with smaller wire strands but more of them?
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Old 13-02-2011, 17:51   #36
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if you look at a cross section of the wires you will see spaces between the individual strands, by dipping the exposed copper strands in dielectric grease the hope is you fill these voids, the wire and terminals when crimped displace the grease where the High points are therefore providing contact. If you are carefull the parts with dielectric grease are contained within the crimp body and will not interfere with the shrink tubing. the wire should not extend beyond the crimp body more than 1/32 to 1/16 inch.
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Old 13-02-2011, 18:02   #37
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if you look at a cross section of the wires you will see spaces between the individual strands, by dipping the exposed copper strands in dielectric grease the hope is you fill these voids, the wire and terminals when crimped displace the grease where the High points are therefore providing contact. If you are carefull the parts with dielectric grease are contained within the crimp body and will not interfere with the shrink tubing. the wire should not extend beyond the crimp body more than 1/32 to 1/16 inch.

A proper crimp, using the right tool, becomes a gas tight connection and no water, or moisture should ever penetrate it. There should be no space inside a proper crimp for a water molecule. No need for dielectric grease inside the crimp.

If you use cheap crimp tools then all you do is actually give more lubrication for the wire to pull out and can also inhibit conductivity as dielectric grease blocks conductance not enhances it.

In a proper crimp it will be squeezed out anyway adding no real tangible benefit inside the crimp barrel..
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Old 13-02-2011, 18:09   #38
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I forgot to answer the ? about the code for dielectric grease. There is none that I know of. Its How I was taught to treat connections since I was a young Lad, I've always greased battery terminals and crimped connections, (not wire nuts)
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Old 13-02-2011, 18:15   #39
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Again, Its how I do it, If you want to do it the way I do or not its your boat and your money.
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Old 13-02-2011, 20:38   #40
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Originally Posted by CDunc View Post
ABYC guidlines say not to solder boat cables (wires) with the exception of battery lugs and they give a dimensional requirement. The solder creats a hard spot and the copper wire will work harden at that point. Tinned wire is more resistant to corrosion but either with Tinned or non tinned best practices win out everytime, this includes proper wire sizing, crimping and sealing the captive terminals, I dip each end in dielectric grease then crimp then heat shrink tubbing, followed by drip loops and finally strain connections, and when I connect to the power strip or post I connect either perpendicular or in an upward direction to keep as much moisture from the strip. Ive used both types of wire and using these practices they are still going strong after 5 years.
I would suggest if one is going to quote ABYC, or any other authority, then they should post the document to verify what they think it says!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYC- E-11
-11.16.3.6. Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used.
11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.
EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.
NOTE: When a stranded conductor is soldered, the soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid strand conductor, and flexing can cause the conductor to break at the end of the solder joint unless adequate additional support is provided.
11.16.3.8. Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3.
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Old 13-02-2011, 21:01   #41
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delmarrey,

You are correct I should have went and got my book and made sure of the rule before posting, My appologies to anyone it affected, However I will not post any part of the actual ABYC rules due to the front page copyright rules where it says no part of this publication may be copied or reproduced in any form without the prior written permission which I do not have. Im sure you read this part as well.
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Old 13-02-2011, 21:31   #42
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It's already posted on the web. What do you use to connect wires on your boat?
& http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...for+Boats+E-11

Here is the USCG version.

So, choose which ever you like.

Quote:
46 C.F.R. PART 183—ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION

183.340 Cable and wiring requirements.

(g) Each connection to a conductor or terminal part of a conductor must be made within an enclosure and have either:
(1) A pressure type connector on each conductor;
(2) A solder lug on each conductor;
(3) A splice made with a pressure type connector to a flexible lead or conductor; or
(4) A splice that is soldered, brazed, or welded to a flexible lead or conductor.
(h) A connector or lug of the set screw type must not be used with a stranded conductor smaller than No. 14 AWG except if there is a nonrotating follower that travels with the set screw and makes pressure contact with the conductor.
(i) Each pressure type wire connector and lug must meet UL 486A, “Electric Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs for Use With Copper Conductors,” or other standard specified by the Commandant. The use of twist-on type wire nuts is permitted under the following conditions:
(1) The connections must be made within an enclosure and the insulated cap of the connector must be secured to prevent loosening due to vibration; and
(2) Twist-on type connectors may not be used for making joints in cables, facilitating a conductor splice, or extending the length of a circuit.
(j) Each terminal block must have 6–32 terminal screws or larger.
(k) Wire connectors utilized in conjunction with screw type terminal blocks must be of the captive type such as the ring or the flanged spade type.
(l) A cable must not be spliced in a hazardous location.
(m) A cable may be spliced in a location, other than a hazardous location, under the following conditions:
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Old 14-02-2011, 05:03   #43
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So is the Type 3 the one with smaller wire strands but more of them?
Yes
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Old 14-02-2011, 05:18   #44
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delmarrey,

You are correct I should have went and got my book and made sure of the rule before posting, My appologies to anyone it affected, However I will not post any part of the actual ABYC rules due to the front page copyright rules where it says no part of this publication may be copied or reproduced in any form without the prior written permission which I do not have. Im sure you read this part as well.
The copyright thing is common amoung standards organizations; I actively participate in ASTM, which has the same policy, and I think it is very wrong. The reason? The revinue for selling standards pays the operating expences for the group. The problem? These standards get written into laws that are to be complied with, however the price of the standard is more than most individuals or small companies want to pay, so they don't know if they are in complience.

I understand the reasons. I don't think they are good enough and I think the regulation writers are simply LAZY when they addopt standards by refference that are not freely available to the regulated community.

Yes, I understand ABYC rules are not law, but this sort of thing is often adopted by refference (ASTM standards form the basis for many rules) so we will see.
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Old 14-02-2011, 05:19   #45
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A proper crimp, using the right tool, becomes a gas tight connection and no water, or moisture should ever penetrate it. There should be no space inside a proper crimp for a water molecule. No need for dielectric grease inside the crimp.

If you use cheap crimp tools then all you do is actually give more lubrication for the wire to pull out and can also inhibit conductivity as dielectric grease blocks conductance not enhances it.

In a proper crimp it will be squeezed out anyway adding no real tangible benefit inside the crimp barrel..
yeah... in the perfect world...but I too have seen that dielectric grease covering the end is night and day even over a "proper" crimp..even the glue kind and shrink wrapped kind. One is easy to do the other has "more" things that may not turn out prefect.

The only difference for me is I dip or smear AFTER crimping or tightening.

I have uncovered bus bars in the shallow, wet bilge of my workboat that look new after 2 years.
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