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Old 06-04-2012, 18:43   #46
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

This is a tinned 6AWG wire/connector I crimped with my Greenlee. Not sure how, or even where, solder would flow if attempted.

If solder were to flow thru these strands, I'd venture to say the crimping job was lacking
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Old 06-04-2012, 18:58   #47
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

Quote:
Originally Posted by US1Fountain View Post
This is a tinned 6AWG wire/connector I crimped with my Greenlee. Not sure how, or even where, solder would flow if attempted.

If solder were to flow thru these strands, I'd venture to say the crimping job was lacking

thats a damned good crimp.

for soldering, it doesnt have to penetrate the strands of the crimp to be useful. if it covered the outer surface of the wire/barrel joint and filled the strands in the insulation gap and maybe a little up inside the insulation, then it's done its job. in fact, if you covered that 6AWG crimp with a length of sealed heat shrink tubing, then you wouldnt need to solder.

you see the biggest benefit of crimp/solder/shrink on smaller gage wire connections where pull strength is low and corrosion exposure has a greater and faster effect.
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Old 06-04-2012, 19:07   #48
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by US1Fountain View Post
This is a 6AWG connector I crimped with my Greenlee. Not sure how, or even where, solder would flow if attempted.
I knew this thread would get interesting sooner or later

If you are a pedantic SOB like me, try this: make two crimps like the one in the photo using an "open terminal". Now try soldering one of them feeding the solder (with RC flux) in from the open end (you will need decent heat say MAPP gas).
Now cut like in the photo and polish the cut end. Look at the cut end with at least a 20x magnifier (and more if you get it). Compare the two crimps.

The first time I tried this I used used good quality mechanical (hex) crimpers and I was surprised to see microscopic veins of solder that wicked in between some of the conductors. Then I repeated using hydraulic (hex) crimpers and while the solder veins were still there, they were far fewer in number.

Question: Is this important and what does it mean?

Answer: Probably not important at all and it means I should get out on the water more
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Old 06-04-2012, 19:45   #49
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by heyniceguy View Post
thats a damned good crimp.

... if you covered that 6AWG crimp with a length of sealed heat shrink tubing, then you wouldnt need to solder.

you see the biggest benefit of crimp/solder/shrink on smaller gage wire connections where pull strength is low and corrosion exposure has a greater and faster effect.
A proper crimp on smaller gauge wires should withstand quite a few pounds of pull. If it can't there is something wrong with the crimp, likely the wrong tool for the job.

Scroll down about halfway here for a good example of the loading a good crimp can handle without pulling free.
Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com
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Old 06-04-2012, 20:30   #50
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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And its a good thing that there are divergant views as well as vessels and views with passion.
I agree, differences of opinion are good for a forum, just saying though.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:31   #51
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

Heat shrink is good stuff, but I dont see it as a replacement for solder. Not all heat shrink is equal. And I dont think its the end all method for keeping corrosion out. Sure its tight, but to assume the once covered it will never let moisture in just wishfull thinking. To claim that with a quality crimp and shrink, no solder is needed, sure its possible. But to assume that solder adds no more protection? I think the solder between strands and the metal to metal bond cant be dismissed. And please no text attached document rebuttals ....just opinions.
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Old 07-04-2012, 13:10   #52
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

Heat shrink over crimp connections are used successfully in deep wells - water doesn't get in.

Heat shrink is not a substitute for a good solder connection,but a good crimp is.
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Old 07-04-2012, 17:46   #53
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Heat shrink over crimp connections are used successfully in deep wells - water doesn't get in.

Heat shrink is not a substitute for a good solder connection,but a good crimp is.
The well pump at our last house was over 280 feet deep (how much submerged water pressure is that?). The 240V well pump wires were spliced with heat shrink/crimp butt splices, called Sta-Kon's, as many well drillers do. When the pump finally died at 16 years old the crimps & wires were still perfect and 100% water tight... Well drillers would simply laugh at these discussions that adhesive lined heat shrink does not work. It worked on our well for 16 years, submerged to a depth of 280+ feet.....

P.S. This was a true artesian well that bubbled over onto our lawn for about 1/3 of the year...
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Old 07-04-2012, 18:04   #54
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
A proper crimp on smaller gauge wires should withstand quite a few pounds of pull. If it can't there is something wrong with the crimp, likely the wrong tool for the job.

Scroll down about halfway here for a good example of the loading a good crimp can handle without pulling free.
Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com
Nice link and IMO should be compulsory reading before attempting to terminate!
I particularly liked the soldering comments on the 4th page as quoted from AMP.

It did touch on another often ignored "best practice" which is only using crimp manufacturers tooling. i.e. use AMP tooling for AMP crimps, Molex for Molex etc.

Now before anyone stomps on this as foolish or impracticable, let me say that IMO, it really doesn't matter so much in marine world and I don't endorse this view for the recreational boater. In my other world (aviation), we follow it (almost) religiously although I know a lot avionics people who don't, heck some even use out of calibration tooling.
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Old 07-04-2012, 19:23   #55
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Now you guys have me "cornfused" Ive been soldering my wires after hand crimping them for more years then even I want to remember!! Never had one vibrate, or become loose from heat yet !! I use heat srink wrap now! but for years before it was available I used rubber wrap and tape. Ive never had a problem from either type of finished joint. I now use only tinned wire, but there was a time, that some of you older folks may remember when there was just WIRE !! I wired our home bilt Colvin with un-tinned wire and solderd joints and rubber and taped joints and we sailed her 20 + years with no problems with the wiring!! but I did have some problems with a yard installed crimped wireing on a SSB radio. so I guess Im gonna keep useing TINNED wire and solderd connections, till someone shows me real crimped joint that lasts 20 + years of real cruising 50,000 + miles under sail and engine! just my 2 cents
Personally I see no problem with soldered connections. If you are replacing your wiring it's going to outlive you if you do it well with copper, tinned, soldered or not. Whether crimped or soldered, the wire end fitting and wire have a stress spot at the junction. Allow a proper amount of flexible curve in your loom or single wire. Personally I think a junction below the floorboards would last longer if soldered closing off the area to corrosion....
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Old 07-04-2012, 20:25   #56
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

"Heat shrink is good stuff, but I dont see it as a replacement for solder. "
Rabbit, there are no opinions to be had on this.
Solder is a form of electrical or mechanical bonding. Heat shrink tubing is a form of insulation never used for mechanical or electrical bonding at all. And unless you're a plumber or tinker, solder is not a form of mechanical bonding at all.

Except in the case of some special tubing manufactured by 3M for use by NASA, in which rings of solder are preformed inside a heat-shrink tube. If this case wires are inserted from both ends and a special heating tool used to solder and seal the joint in one operation, in a zero-G environment if necessary.

Don't worry, you'll probably never encounter those fittings on this earth unless you steal my tool box.
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Old 08-04-2012, 00:05   #57
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
.......
Except in the case of some special tubing manufactured by 3M for use by NASA, in which rings of solder are preformed inside a heat-shrink tube. If this case wires are inserted from both ends and a special heating tool used to solder and seal the joint in one operation, in a zero-G environment if necessary.

Don't worry, you'll probably never encounter those fittings on this earth unless you steal my tool box.
Ahh the old solder sleeves - now here is product that requires excellent skills to get right and very easy to foul up. I would go so far as to say 50% of folk who do use them think they get it right but they haven't realized they have done a poor job.
Hellosailor is probably part of the other 50% .
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Old 08-04-2012, 05:00   #58
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

How about the electronics and devices on board. Are they all Tinned wire through out the device? Is that a standard for wiring devices for a boat? Just wondering..

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Old 14-04-2012, 21:47   #59
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

This is what happens to plain copper. Even the lugs can corrode.

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Old 14-04-2012, 22:36   #60
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by Hyprdrv View Post
How about the electronics and devices on board. Are they all Tinned wire through out the device? Is that a standard for wiring devices for a boat? Just wondering..

Steve in Solomons MD
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Electronics devices typically use un-tinned wire.

I still prefer to use tinned wherever I can -- there's no point in adding more potential points of failure to my system. I use adhesive heat-shrink when connecting to the un-tinned wires, and that protects the wire ends a bit. Still, if you strip most untinned wire after a few years in a salt environment the wire will be corroded. The insulation appears to be semi-permeable.
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