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Old 06-04-2012, 12:47   #31
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Anyone who knowingly does so, IMHO, is either a skinflint practicing false economics or doesn't place any value on his/her time.
Had to look it up to be sure it met what I assumed based on use. Seems it leads to a discussion of the head or to those too cheap to take or give a crap:

A miser, cheapskate, snipe-snout, penny pincher, piker, scrooge, skinflint or tightwad is a person who is reluctant to spend money, sometimes to the point of forgoing even basic comforts and some necessities. Old people were commonly portrayed as being miserly but this stereotype is less common since support programs such as Social Security have resulted in less poverty in old age.[1]
Freud attributed the development of miserly behaviour to toilet training in childhood. Some infants would attempt to retain the contents of their bowels and this would result in the development of an anal retentive personality that would attempt to retain their wealth and possessions in later life.[2]
In traditional Chinese Confucianism, those who were concerned with money – landlords and merchants – were thought to be a low order of society, inferior to the peasant farmers who tilled the soil. They were condemned in allegory as misers and officials would punish such behaviour in times of famine.[3]
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:59   #32
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

"ABYC E-11 states that solder should not be the only means of connection, meaning a crimp is required in any case."
I'd call that poorly worded and subject to misinterpretation. A solder joint is never the "only" means of connection when it is done properly. A solder joint is always supposed to be made OVER a mechanical connection, i.e. twisting the wires to make a mechanical connection, and then soldering over the twisted wires.
As opposed to a "simple" solder connection, where you touch two wires together and then apply solder. That's wrong, even for soldering.

As the wire strands gets thinner there seems to be more potential for air spaces between the strands and under the insulation. Normal thermal cycling will suck "fresh" air into those gaps, which brings fresh moisture, which brings Kreeping Krud and punked out green and black wires, if they aren't tinned. Doesn't happen all the time but "fully tinned" makes cheap insurance compared to running new wires after you've dealt with a failure from Krud.
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Old 06-04-2012, 13:46   #33
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

I'm glad its come out that crimp, solder, shrink is fairly commen. Its the way I'v done it for years, and was showed by an electrician. Someone early on refered to proper calibrated tools. There seems to be a standard style crimper in most USA hardware stores. These DO NOT WORK. I now have a Snap-on crimper that is very good. Have you ever noticed that most people dont know how to use vice-grips properly? The just end up rounding stuff and never get the fastener out. Flat jaw, round jaw, big, small, If you need vice-grips, you have 6 or 10 choices, and all the others are wrong. My point is just because someone owns crimpers and soldering iron, they might not have a clue as how to use them to make a quality connection.
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Old 06-04-2012, 14:07   #34
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

2 proper crimpers that are not very expensive.
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Old 06-04-2012, 14:18   #35
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

My bet is that if boat owners who go to such lengths to discuss, look up ABYC standards, tinned, non tinned, to/not to solder, heat shrink, supporting, chafing, turns, crimps and crimping tools, then chances are pretty good that the untinned wire if used will hold up and do the intended job and I'd feel pretty comfortable on their boat. I used to agree that tinned wire was the only right way. But all boats are different. My French boat has all tinned wire now because the costs were cheap enough to go that way when I rewired the factory rats nest of untinned wire. But on many larger boats a mixture of tinned and untinned wire is used in many areas that are climate controlled 24/7. I'd at the least make sure to use tinned wire in wet locations such as bilges, heads, showers, engine rooms etc.
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Old 06-04-2012, 15:06   #36
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

"For me, taught by the Air Force, it's crimp, solder and shrink."

I've built gobs of flight hardware for the Army (apache systems, specifically) and this is the proper method for exposed* wiring. The military's definition of "exposed" means that it's not sealed in a casing, regardless whether or not it was exposed to the elements. This is a much tighter definition than what we would consider it in boat systems. If that rule was followed for boats, then there would be nothing but "exposed" wire in your boat, by definition, except for the wiring sealed inside your electronic devices.

Even in my days of building emergency vehicles, we would crimp, then solder, then shrink (if the termination point allowed). Even Deutsch, Packard, and 38999 connector contacts would be crimped, then soldered. The reason you dont find this method on commercial vehicles is a cost feature, not a design feature.

Crimp/Solder/Shrink makes sense not just from a mechanical strength POV, but also from a corrosion POV. Copper wire crimped to terminations made from various other metals in a salty air environ = galvanic corrosion and a weakened joint. By covering that crimped junction with solder, it is no longer exposed to salty air. This junction is further protected from salt corrosion and mechanical stress by shrinking over it.

This is all predicated on the builder using the right tools/methods when soldering and crimping.
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Old 06-04-2012, 15:25   #37
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
The sum of the cross sectional area of the individual strands has everything to do with the wires ability to carry current and not necessarily the number of individual strands.
Actually, I thought the electricity flowed on the wires surface rather than through the copper, but happy to be corrected.

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Old 06-04-2012, 15:51   #38
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Actually, I thought the electricity flowed on the wires surface rather than through the copper, but happy to be corrected.

Pete
The higher the frequency, the more it does so, but normally engineers only start acting on this principle from VHF range up (coils are made with silver-coated copper wire for VHF while normal copper wire is used for HF).

For regular DC and AC electrical power wiring it is about the cross sectional surface area.

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Old 06-04-2012, 15:54   #39
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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For regular DC and AC electrical power wiring it is about the cross sectional surface area.

ciao!
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Seconded.
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Old 06-04-2012, 16:17   #40
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I use di electric grease on the wires and then crimp. Then heat shrink. Usually use tinned wire. On my windless I used welding cable as it was free. Use good crimps. Those cheap stripper dual purpose things do not crimp as well as a ideal crimpmaster. On my battery terminals I have a massive set of greenlee crimps. Near 4 and a half feet long. I used a cheap crimped and broke the dies. Highly recommend the ideal crimper. If you don't have access to a big crimper get your cables made by someone who does. Add to your tool kit a decent crimp tool.
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Old 06-04-2012, 16:31   #41
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

I would use protection like a dielectric after crimping, but never on the wires before crimping - it is an insulator and can hamper conductivity.
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Old 06-04-2012, 17:59   #42
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
The higher the frequency, the more it does so, but normally engineers only start acting on this principle from VHF range up (coils are made with silver-coated copper wire for VHF while normal copper wire is used for HF).

For regular DC and AC electrical power wiring it is about the cross sectional surface area.

ciao!
Nick.
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Seconded.
Actually heyniceguy that should be "thirded" and Jedi should be "seconded" when considered in relation to post No. 18
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Old 06-04-2012, 18:08   #43
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
My bet is that if boat owners who go to such lengths to discuss, look up ABYC standards, tinned, non tinned, to/not to solder, heat shrink, supporting, chafing, turns, crimps and crimping tools, then chances are pretty good that the untinned wire if used will hold up and do the intended job and I'd feel pretty comfortable on their boat. I used to agree that tinned wire was the only right way. But all boats are different. My French boat has all tinned wire now because the costs were cheap enough to go that way when I rewired the factory rats nest of untinned wire. But on many larger boats a mixture of tinned and untinned wire is used in many areas that are climate controlled 24/7. I'd at the least make sure to use tinned wire in wet locations such as bilges, heads, showers, engine rooms etc.
You are probably right. All of us who are discussing the finer points of best practice will be already doing a decent job anyway. My hope is that a few readers (not necessarily posters) will go away wanting to make some changes to how they do stuff.
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Old 06-04-2012, 18:20   #44
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

Boy, this is getting like the anchoring or cat v mono threads.
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Old 06-04-2012, 18:24   #45
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Re: Tinned & Untinned Wire (Again).

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Boy, this is getting like the anchoring or cat v mono threads.
And its a good thing that there are divergant views as well as vessels and views with passion.
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