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Old 26-08-2009, 23:02   #31
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maybe you can get Himself to give you a hand?
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Old 26-08-2009, 23:04   #32
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well.. I am hoping he might... after all I have often had men complain when I wanted to get above myself, but rarely demurred when I wished to go down...

*whistling innocently*
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Old 27-08-2009, 06:48   #33
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I don't know what the inside diameter of the tube is or the size of the post but maybe a piece of PVC pipe or plastic electrical conduit would fit and act as a bushing. Just thinking outloud.

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Old 27-08-2009, 08:11   #34
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Rudder bushings: If the internal diameter of the pipe does indeed allow bushings, the two methods I would consider are:

1. Two smallish bushings machined out of delrin; one at the top and one at the bottom. Small as in 3-4 inches long, so not the whole pipe. Delrin is often used but there are other, better materials, but these are not needed here I think.

2. Using West System epoxy and their carbon additive, you can create a lining that is very hard and smooth. You need something (like a pvc pipe) of the same diameter as the rudder shaft with mold release (carnauba wax or even plastic sandwich wrap) to apply this. After cure you need to sand it with sandpaper around a pipe. Instead of a pipe, the rudder itself is often used for this to make sure it will turn smooth.

The trouble is that you must be on the hard for the lower bushing using the epoxy method, while you can do the delrin bushing while in the water.

A whole different approach: you can buy fiberglass pipe. It is used for exhaust systems. One source I know is Centek (from the waterlift muflers etc.) If the old pipe is the problem, I would haul out, grind the old pipe out and epoxy the new one in. You need to measure the wall thickness of the old one and at least match that with the new one. If it's too thin, you can simply use epoxy and fiberglass tape and wrap it around. Where the pipe meets hull and deck, you use cloth to reinforce the connection of course. This may sound like a big project but it really isn't and anyone that can varnish wood can do this too, like in one day. It's also cheap except may be for the haul-out.

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Old 27-08-2009, 08:57   #35
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Rudder bushings: If the internal diameter of the pipe does indeed allow bushings, the two methods I would consider are:

1. Two smallish bushings machined out of delrin; one at the top and one at the bottom. Small as in 3-4 inches long, so not the whole pipe. Delrin is often used but there are other, better materials, but these are not needed here I think.

2. Using West System epoxy and their carbon additive, you can create a lining that is very hard and smooth. You need something (like a pvc pipe) of the same diameter as the rudder shaft with mold release (carnauba wax or even plastic sandwich wrap) to apply this. After cure you need to sand it with sandpaper around a pipe. Instead of a pipe, the rudder itself is often used for this to make sure it will turn smooth.

The trouble is that you must be on the hard for the lower bushing using the epoxy method, while you can do the delrin bushing while in the water.

A whole different approach: you can buy fiberglass pipe. It is used for exhaust systems. One source I know is Centek (from the waterlift muflers etc.) If the old pipe is the problem, I would haul out, grind the old pipe out and epoxy the new one in. You need to measure the wall thickness of the old one and at least match that with the new one. If it's too thin, you can simply use epoxy and fiberglass tape and wrap it around. Where the pipe meets hull and deck, you use cloth to reinforce the connection of course. This may sound like a big project but it really isn't and anyone that can varnish wood can do this too, like in one day. It's also cheap except may be for the haul-out.

cheers,
Nick.
We're talking taking up clearances with brass shim stock, don't remember now, but my friend used something on the the order of 5 thousandths. I don't remember if he eventually replaced it with a cut up plastic coke bottle (about 0.01") or if it was someone else, but if I remember correctly for this boat, the shim was cut to go a quarter of the way around as 0.010" was too big for a full wrap.

I've read the West thing before, never seen it applied. I thought the key to that was the graphite filler making a low friction surface. You drill a couple of holes in the housing tube to inject the resin. Real important is that the rudder post has to be round and straight, or you're going to be real unhappy.

Section 8.4, starts on the bottom of page 59:
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...aintenance.pdf

I think cutting the whole tube out to get rid of the minor annoyance of hearing the rudder go clunk while sailing is excessive. Live with the clunk or shim it, or at the most do the epoxy trick. The amount of glass worn away compared to the total thickness of the tube is tiny.

John
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Old 27-08-2009, 14:38   #36
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Yes, I meant the graphite additive (graphite = carbon).

It's easy to do when out of the water.

Cheers,
Nick.
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Old 27-08-2009, 15:11   #37
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You can buy Delrin or other slick sheet products from Graingers in various thin thicknesses...you could just roll that around the shaft to take up the space....????
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Old 27-08-2009, 15:24   #38
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Cheechako,

Yes, I've thought of that. You can buy self-adhesive UHMW plastic tape which would work. But what happens when the adhesive fails? I think the rudder is too important (my "primary system" talk again ;-) for this type of solution. Plus, the other methods are really not much work. What's a single day to tackle this properly? Worth it, I think.

For the thread:

When there's a lot of room, delrin bushings are easy to do. When there's not enough room for bushings, the epoxy + graphite is just as easy. And both solutions are much better than UHMW tape, let alone the coke bottle solution. I think that last one really sucks, sorry to say it. When someone uses coke bottles to store food, I say it's a great idea, but using them for fixing the rudder/shaft is just showing no respect for the boat nor for your own safety. The boat would be better off if you sell her in that case.

ciao!
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Old 27-08-2009, 15:39   #39
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Sara, get himself to help you and, hurry up and drop that rudder before these guy type them self's to death................... lmao
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Old 27-08-2009, 15:54   #40
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;-)

Don't worry, I can type quicker than talking ;-)

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Old 27-08-2009, 18:29   #41
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tomorrow, I PROMISE! Do you know how cold it is in the bay if we haven't had a few warm days??? and it was the first week of school which always sorta bollocks up my world...

and I only got a shortie!

Wouldn't want the to wear their fingers to the bone now.

Well on reflection type away... all the chatter here has got me so I think I am equipt to at least approach this lil thang with at least a clue about what I am doing!

And I promise, lots of pictures. Next time someone wants to know about the rudder system I will have it all down in glorious technicolor for 'em!
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Old 27-08-2009, 18:36   #42
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but seriously: i bet you got a lot of info now!.........but i was waiting on "how to rebuild a rudder" if yours didn't float . like a sponge to water i suck up all the info i can on this forum.........these ppl are just great..........
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Old 27-08-2009, 18:40   #43
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"how to rebuild a rudder" if yours didn't float .
oh god....

I SO don't want to start that thread!!!

and you are right, they are great!
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Old 29-08-2009, 06:43   #44
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oh the flavour of humble pie...

I spent most of yesterday in the water. About a quarter of the hull is scraped bare, so I now have an excellent view of the rudder. I don't know if I am relieved or annoyed. It appears that early speculation was correct that I (or someone over the last month) have gotten the tiller katywhompus and it is locked 175° from where it should be.

the large side of the rudder is towards the bow and is locked up against the hull just a few degrees star b' of the keel line. The smaller side has over an inch gap from the hull at the stern end. There wasn't any evidence at all of any object striking it. It appears to just be jammed up against the hull.

my bad...

So, I cleared the area of growth. Did my best to scrape it out between the rudder and hull. Strapped it up as discussed earlier. Unscrewed the bolts on the tiller cap. and nada. That cap is so not just gonna come off. So much for the worry that the rudder would slide into the muddy morass of the marina floor.

I tried to get a grip on the rudder from below and wrench it free, but no dice. at one point in frustration I gave it a huge kick, but the effect of being under water rendered that into a slow motion comedy...

I am imagining taking two 12' lengths of lumber and sandwiching them on either side of the rudder and lashing them together and then lashing lines to the ends to make sort of a huge twisting lever and then applying pressure from both fore and aft in the appropriate directions to get the clockwise rotation I need to shake this baby loose.

Sigh.

Any other ideas?

Himself was a trooper and pulled me in and out of the water, handed me tools, jury rigged wrist lines after I had dropped 2 scrapers to the bottom, held the line attached to the weightbelt to support me while I was on the surface, held the breathing tube out of the water while I was under and trotted back and forth from one side to the other with endless patience.

He sorta lost it when the tiller cap wouldn't come off. A combination of weariness and lack of food contributed to his anxiety and for a while we had the "We are just going to wait until we pull it out of the water, because we don't know what the problem is and we might break something"/"Oh no we aren't, sailing season is almost upon us and we are taking this sucker out on the water if it kills us!" conversation. But I fed him and poured him a glass of vino and we took the dog for a walk and looked out over the bay in all it's glory and pretty soon it was " I really do want to go sailing, it would be so nice if we were out there right now" / "I know honey, and we will be. It's just a thang. We can get thru this."

I was pretty tired last night and today we have a swapmeet in Valleg
jo that we are going to with our shopping list of needs and wants. Hopefully we will find some of the stuff we need for the electrical...

So. There ya have it.

And thanks ta y'all I know way more about rudders than when I started. I confess to hoping I don't have to get to much more educated this time around. I am ready for this problem to be fixed!
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Old 29-08-2009, 08:04   #45
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Hi Sara
Start with getting a very good quality penetrating oil and put it in every oriffice of the "tiller cap" let it set overnight then do it again. In most cases a couple of days of this will loosen frozen on parts.To turn the rudder I would look at tying the boat tight to one side of the dock. From there use the cargo straps to secure a line that leads to the stearn most edge of the rudder. Next take a pully and secure it to the opposite side of the dock (preferably a piling) then lead it back tot the primary winch and see if the that will pull the rudder around.

Ok now that I've written that I have another idea. Much easier. Take a Pipe that will fit over the tiller and make a cheater bar that extends 5 or 6 feet from the end of the tiller and use that as a lever. If you can't find a pipe use a piece of 2x4 and use U bolts to attach it to the side of the tiller taking care to pad the U bolts with a hard rubber to prevent the tiller from being marred. Good luck!!!
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