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Old 22-04-2011, 06:09   #1
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Tiller AND Wheel Steering

Is it possible to have a tiller on a transom hung rudder AND wheel steering in a pilothouse?
What wheel system would work?
Any help is much appreciated.
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Old 22-04-2011, 06:23   #2
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

anything is possible...

my pilothouse is set up as described, i have a stainless tiller that is removable...
old p.h. steering was hydraulic that connected to the tiller head on the rudder with the tiller removed, it maybe have worked well at some point but it was a very friction heavy system when i got it and i did not like the added complexity of hydraulics.

i am no smack in the middle of installing pulleys in the boat for a rope and pulley steering system from in the pilot house ropes will connect to the ends of the tiller with clips or some such system, biggest problem i am having now is finding a helm for rope and pulley, will most likely have to make my own...


this could work on a pilothouse but doesnt require one:
give a look at the way bernard moitessier set up the steering on joshua and tamata. he had rope and pulley system with a wheel mounted on cockpit/cabin bulkhead on the outside (cockpit), with the rope being all in the cockpit run to the tiller, however, that shaft that the wheel spins on extends thru the bulkhead into the cabin where another wheel is mounted on it to provide for inside steering

food for thought
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Old 22-04-2011, 06:46   #3
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

The geometry to make a tiller - steered rudder, operated by cable, can be quite complex, IF you want it to maintain constant, consistent, tension on the wire.
The axles on the pullies, and the center point on the gudgeons should be in a straight line when viewed both horizontally, and vertically, and the tiller will probably require a constant radius quadrant, whose radials converge at the center point of the gudgeon.
A good example of how this can be seen to go out of whack, is to look at an old cable-steered outboard motor and watch the tension springs change length from lock-to-lock.
This may have been the reason the boat had the hydraulic system, to get away from the cable tension problem.
Sailed on a Seawind 30 ketch years ago- sweet boat.

Added: Wilcox-Crittendon made a rope drum/wheel assembly. I used one on the Friendship sloop I built in 1970.
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Old 22-04-2011, 07:09   #4
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

The "cheekplates", (is that the right terminology) on the rudder are stainless plates with stainless rods welded perpendicular to the cheek plates. The rods extend approx 8-9".
I suspect they were intended as attach points for cable.

I wonder about the forces needed to pull the barndoor of a rudder in that manner.

It's on a 38' Ingrid, a heavy one. Could I rig a disconnect point on such a system, assuming it would work to begin with? I love the tiller feedback and think the friction of the system would degrade that. On the other hand, it sure would be nice and dry and warm in the pilothouse on a long nasty slot.

Hydraulic?
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Old 22-04-2011, 07:22   #5
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

But, would the crew be confused? Would the wheel turn left to go to port, or must it be like the old ships, so to be like the tillar? "Push it in the wrong way" she says
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Old 22-04-2011, 07:28   #6
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

Hmmm-an Ingrid eh! That curved stern post, and the arc described by the rudderhead travel, is going to make this an interesting one to solve IMHO. Anything helpful on the owner's site-seems to be quite comprehensive.

Archeron, have you been aboard the Charles W Morgan at Mystic Seaport.
The wheel and helm assembly is mounted on top of the tiller, and helmsman and all, swing with the tiller.
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Old 22-04-2011, 07:36   #7
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering



Like this!
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Old 22-04-2011, 07:38   #8
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

dont think those will work for cable steering, not a long enough lever arm, putting the cable on the end of the tiller requires much less force to move the barndoor...
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Old 22-04-2011, 08:33   #9
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

a friend had a boat set up with both wheel and tiller. The drawback was that the wheel made it harder to steer by tiller, because everytime you moved the tiller you had to supply enough energy to spin the wheel as well. When he installed a wind vane, he found that the drag from the wheel made it much more difficult for the vane to do its job. When he finally removed the wheel assembly entirely, he was pleased to find how much easier his boat steered by tiller alone.

Said he wished he'd thrown the wheel away much earlier.
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Old 22-04-2011, 09:03   #10
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by acheron View Post
But, would the crew be confused? Would the wheel turn left to go to port, or must it be like the old ships, so to be like the tillar? "Push it in the wrong way" she says
This the reason by law that the direction of turning the wheel is marked for the direction of the rudder. i.e. <= Right rudder Left rudder =>.
I know from personnal experience that some ships of other nations that you turn the wheel to the left for right rudder. This would be the same as moving the tiller to port for right rudder.
So it pays to look at the direction stencil that indicates the direction of turning the wheel for either Right or Left rudder. OR Else you just may put the rudder over in the wrong direction.

Need I say more!?
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Old 22-04-2011, 09:42   #11
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strait Shooter View Post
Is it possible to have a tiller on a transom hung rudder AND wheel steering in a pilothouse?
What wheel system would work?
Any help is much appreciated.
Haven't read the rest of this thread yet, but I would imagine a few skippers have described this set up precisely.

I have a steel pilothouse cutter, with two wheel helms, one in the pilothouse and one at a "sailing helm" in the middle of the aft deck. They are both hydraulically linked via a Marol ram.

Behind this sailing helm is the transom-hung rudder, with a welded tiller head. in order to use this, one goes below and bypasses the hydraulics via a ball valve handle. Attach a six foot tiller and you can steer old-school, but the real reason this exists beyond "emergency steering" is to run self-steering lines from a windvane.

This provides two separate and non-interconnected ways in which to steer the boat. On passage, we would use the autopilot in conjunction with the motor and the wheel steering, and the windvane with the sails and the tiller.

Not only is the windvane as good a helmsman as the AP, it eats zero amps. I like all the amps made via motoring to be drained as slowly as possible when under sail.
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Old 22-04-2011, 09:51   #12
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

My motorsailer is equipped with hydraulic steering and an emergency rear cockpit tiller. All one has to do is attach the tiller to the rudder post (one bolt) and open the hydraulic cylinder bypass valve.
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Old 22-04-2011, 10:17   #13
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

Hydraulic sounds like it would work.

The P.O. had all the pulley's, wire and chain for a wire system. I just don't see it being very practical.

It looks like the "arms" on the cheek plates might be useable for a connecting point for hydraulics, no?

So if I close the by pass valve isn't there still resistance from the rams when using the tiller?
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Old 22-04-2011, 10:31   #14
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strait Shooter View Post
Hydraulic sounds like it would work.

The P.O. had all the pulley's, wire and chain for a wire system. I just don't see it being very practical.

It looks like the "arms" on the cheek plates might be useable for a connecting point for hydraulics, no?

So if I close the by pass valve isn't there still resistance from the rams when using the tiller?
You open the bypass valve to use the tiller. The small resistance actually helps cushion the tiller like a shock absorber.
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Old 22-04-2011, 10:36   #15
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Re: tiller AND wheel steering

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Originally Posted by Lancerbye View Post
You open the bypass valve to use the tiller. The small resistance actually helps cushion the tiller like a shock absorber.

Got it...open the valve to use the tiller.

I need to look at hydraulic systems it would appear.
Any suggestions re: good, better, best?

Would the rams go inboard? It would make for a long stroke.
Do they make external rams? I would imagine they do.
Google here I come.
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