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Old 24-10-2006, 18:44   #31
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I often read and post on a kit car site. The manufacturer and most part suppliers are major sponsors and yet there is no ban on criticism . Before posting you should try to resolve any problems with the manufacturer/distributor but afterwards you are permitted to post in a civil manner. It works wonders in improved customer service and sales for those doing a great job.
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Old 24-10-2006, 21:19   #32
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It will materialize officially elsewhere. Stay tuned.
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Old 24-10-2006, 22:16   #33
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It now exists!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...play.php?f=124
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Old 29-10-2006, 11:39   #34
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I would like those who are "appointed" to protect all of us from of the rants of the unhappy consumer to think about this: I am an adult, I think that most who use this site are as well (not alot of children own boats). I am well equipped to discern for myself those posts that are grinding an axe versus those that have a legitimate reason for complaint. I do not need nor do I want interference from, or censorship by, a committe of those who feel they know what I may read or not.

Let people post what they will. The good will stand out and the bad will be generally ignored. In any case, a decent company that cannot defend itself or does not care to here, makes that decision for themselves. As long as they are offered the opportunity to do so is all that counts.

I for one think that the list of "Rules" is overkill of the first order. Has anyone really determined if there has been any person or company actually suffer damages from a rant on this board? If so, to what extent? Further, has anyone ever made a definitive case of damages incurred, and if so, are they so severe that the only meaningful response is to restrict what people may post here?

Those that are "in charge" here should carefully consider the above BEFORE making any decision on restricting the free and unhindered discourse that is the lifeblood of a good board.

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Old 29-10-2006, 11:55   #35
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Alan, respectfully, I think you are missing the point. It is not about censorship. It is about keeping this board a civil and fun place. There are certain issues that bring out the worst in people. Some moderation of such issues is necessary, otherwise, these same adults, in a well meaning way, will begin to argue, not discuss the issues. While we have an exceptional group here, and it has rarely been an issue, it takes only one time to completely change the environment of the forum. We have not eliminated such posts, but rather, have created a specific place for them, and some guidelines to keep them on topic.
As for the rules, this forum has always played loose with the rules, and will continue to do so. We are not interested in censorship. We are not interested in controlling free speach. What we are interested in is encouraging people to maintain a certain decorum. We welcome you to say you had a boat like mine and it was a piece of junk, but we are making every effort to keep you from saying MY boat is a piece of junk.
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Old 29-10-2006, 12:11   #36
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Alan,

And, didn't you agree to the rules when you signed on as a member??????? I suggest you read them again!

If you don't like the rules there are other forums, where the forum runs a muck ..........................._/)
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Old 29-10-2006, 15:15   #37
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First to Delmarrey; The "love it or leave it" response was worn out in the Vietnam war days and I think not very useful or enlightening even then. I never think it out of place to question what I consider to be attempts to censor speech no matter how well intentioned. While rules are indeed needed for every community you indeed did miss my point. The rules applied to the forum for product reviews states that they should be "Fair". Who judges whether something is "Fair"?

The rules for that forum are filled with these kind of subjective, unprovable, and ultimately not useful "rules". The deciding what is fair or pleasant or respectful is in the hands of a few and that is censorship no matter how you want to spin it otherwise. I would much rather have something interesting and skewed to one point or another (isnt that "opinion") than fair, respectful and dull as dirt.

I am not against rules. I am against needless, unenforcable, purely subjective rules for the sake of "pleasantry" which is what a good share of the rules for the new forum are.

Alan
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Old 29-10-2006, 15:31   #38
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To Kai Nui, with all due respect I do not think I am misssing the point. The point is clear to me. Are rules necessary? Yes. But they should be enforcable, they should address specific problems, they should be clear and they should not stray into censorship of opinion. Some of the "rules" for the new forum meet these criteria and some do not. For instance the imperative that reviews be "fair". Who judges what fair is? What is fair depends on the individual experience and the problems encountered it seems to me. What is accurate? And how would you or anyone else know for sure? Please define a "Rant" for me. One persons rant may be anothers well thought out review. And as for "well thought out", another term used in the rules. How will you judge that?

This super-subjective rule making is what I consider to be censorship. It stifles imaginative thought and expression, depresses colorful language and makes for dull reading.

As I said in my post, I would rather it be a "rant" (whatever that is) and be good reading and informative (not necessarily, well thought out) than dull and politically and socially correct.

Alan
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Old 29-10-2006, 16:05   #39
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"Should we allow negative personal opinion posts,"

Hmm.
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Old 29-10-2006, 16:18   #40
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The rules, and in this case "guidelines" ARE enforcable. Subjective? Absolutely. That is why we have the people we do on the mod/admin team. Understand, I am not in anyway degrading your point, or putting any less weight on your opinion than anyone elses. It just seems to me, and I appear to have support in this opinion, that if we let such posts go unregulated, they turn into arguments, and members who would agree on everything else, stop talking to each other. There a number of personalities, cultures, and sensibilities on this site. "Colorful" language may be fine to set the tone of a particular statement, but is that really a tone we want on the site? There is certain language I simply don't care to read through when looking for information on a subject. Not that I have virgin ears by any means, or that I don't cuss a blue streak now and then, but I sure as heck won't do it when discussing a problem customer at the office, and I see no reason to use that language, or have to tolerate it where I relax.
As for rants. Not always a bad thing, and I think most of us are capable of recognizing a rant, even when it is our own. Nothing wrong with an occasional rant. However, if someone signs on. posts one or two rants. Does not recognize them as such. Then leaves, what have they really contributed to the site? What have they gained from it?
And finally, I am unclear what you object to about creating a specific area for product reviews, then asking that those who post to that area adhere to a few guidelines? Is there something specific in those guidelines you disagree with? Remember, we are only human. We do the best we can to create an environment that is friendly to everyone concerned. And, we will not, for one moment, claim to have all the right answers. If you have specific objections to the guidelines we have set down, feel free to suggest changes. We will review your suggestion, and if we decide against it, you can be assured we will give you a reason why. In this instance, I do not support a "love it or leave it" attitude, but I most certainly support a leadership decision, and the requirement that all participants adhere to that decision.
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Old 29-10-2006, 16:19   #41
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Canibul, NO
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Old 30-10-2006, 09:47   #42
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I think it's a great idea to have a thread that has user opinions on equipment they have actually purchased and put to use. Trying to get the real world scoop on any given product can be very hard to find at times in the commercial magazine world, as they have advertisers to appease. If something is deemed inappropiate and not within the rules of the forum, the moderators can simply delete the post, right? To be afraid to give something a try because it might not work seems to go against how many sailors think anyway (at least the one's I know).

At any rate, the three things that have changed my life for the better aboard my own boat are my roller furling gears on my staysail and headsail (Harken), my belowdecks autopilot (autohelm), and my dodger/rainfly combination. I know that these days, many new boats come with these, but mine didn't have any of the three. If I bought another boat without these, I would start here with my upgrades.
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Old 30-10-2006, 12:50   #43
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Slow Shoes, thanks for that. You clearly understand what we are trying to do. Not every removed post is "censorship". Remember, we are encouraging positive product reveiws as well. If you are happy with your Harken, and/or had a good experience with the vendor, please feel free to put a thread in the product reviews about it. There have been several threads asking about roller furling gear, and think it would be a reat benefit to have a review of one of the products here. The funy thing about sailors is that we are self sufficient enough that if we understand how something works, and the general design, we will just build it ourselves, so there is not likely to be a review available. If we do not understand the design, and have to buy it, we will probably not be able to sift through the sales pitches that all the manufacturers give to determine what product will be best. That is where honest reviews by people who have actually used the products come in.
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Old 30-10-2006, 13:04   #44
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uh, just one quick comment on the rules, that no one else has brought up or maybe I missed it. But the way I read it, you cant state a bad opinion on any product that doesnt have its own website.

Does that make sense?
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Old 30-10-2006, 13:18   #45
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Refer to my previous comment about "fast and loose with the rules" All we ask is an effort to keep things fair. If the concern is something that we feel the vendor should respond too, we will gladly work with the original poster to try to contact them and get a response. As with the Gori thread, I have emailed the manufacturer, and invited them to respond. I have received no response. If they don't care enough about their customer base to respond, even in a direct email to me, it tells allot about their customer service policy. I personally have removed them from my wish list as a result of this thread, and the fact they didn't respond. Others may not consider this a big deal,and that is fine, but to me, if a manufacturer will not even provide a form letter response to a concern about their product, how will the take care of me if the product actually breaks?
The main concern of the Admin/Mod team here is to benefit the members. Our second concern is to provide a fair and friendly atmosphere. In order to do that, we need to provide every possible opportunity for all concerned parties to voice their side. But, we are not in charge of investigating product liability claims, and would never want to assume that role. We will only provide a fair and balanced opportunity for both sides to address the issues.
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